REVEREND DEAN: (00:00)
I am the Reverend Dean Becker guardian of the drug war. Moral high ground. prohibition has no benefit. It is a fascist tool. It seeks to gain control of all our rights, the future of mankind. This is cultural baggage. Phil, my friends, thank you for being with us here on today's, uh, edition of Cultural Baggie. I am Dean Becker, the Reverend Most High. We've got a powerful show lined up for you here today. Uh, we got two powerful guests to speak of. One, the, uh, uh, former executive director of Law Enforcement Action Partnership. But additionally, a man who broke the ice for me here in Houston about 10, 11 years ago, a man who stood forth and declared the war drug war to be a miserable failure. And with that, I wanna welcome now retired Police chief of Houston, Texas. Mr. Charles a McClellan, Jr. How you doing, Charles? 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (00:58)
Uh, very good. Dean, how about yourself? 

REVEREND DEAN: (01:00)
Uh, for 76, I'm doing great. And, uh, Neil, thank you for being with us once again. I just felt you guys would make a heck of a team to talk about what's going on, well, not just with the drug war, but what's going on with this, and I'll call it war on, uh, reality, that, that, uh, president Trump is waging and, uh, the, the fascist tendencies of it all. Now, I, I wanna start this off by asking you guys first, chief, I, if I remember right, uh, you had more than 40 years as a law enforcement, uh, officer. Is that correct? 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (01:34)
That is correct, Dean. 

REVEREND DEAN: (01:36)
That's, that's an amazing number. And Neil, you had your decades. I, I, I'm aware too, working mostly in the Baltimore area, uh, doing a lot of training still these days. Are you not? 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (01:48)
Yeah. Can't seem to get away from it, Dean. Yeah. And still involved at some level when in law enforcement. Um, but, uh, I only have 34 years, officially not 40. I'd like to achieve . 

REVEREND DEAN: (02:00)
That's still de couldn't 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (02:01)
Catch them. I couldn't catch them. 

REVEREND DEAN: (02:02)
. Uh, that's still dedication and it should be appreciated by all of us. Um, I, I wanna start with this, that, that's been occurring to me, that we keep seeing these instances of fear being presented by mostly Republicans trying to keep us agitated and distracted from, from, well, from, uh, Ms. Maxwell and or, uh, the, the situation where they, uh, they want to hide information from us. They want us to focus on other things besides the crimes that, um, uh, I'll just say allegedly, uh, Trump has committed, um, and, and I see it starting. It's, it's fake paranoia, which leads to deadly delusions. And that's what we're having now develop in, uh, the Caribbean, because that's the hot story for today. And I, I want to, uh, address that if we can, that for decades, the drug war has given license to law enforcement to get a little more violent, a little more surreptitious, a little more, uh, in control of drug users. 

REVEREND DEAN: (03:09)
And I, I think that that mindset has been used now to go after this war on reality. And, and they're arresting people because they speak Spanish, or they look Spanish, or I, I don't know, they're wearing something that looks Spanish. They, it's a total, um, I don't know, diminution of our rights, this war on reality. Uh, chief, would you address this, that they've taken this mechanism of drug war and extrapolated it, uh, on all of us? I, I think it's still racism. Uh, just like drug war was in the beginning. Y your thought Chief McClellan. 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (03:47)
Well, when, when it comes to drugs, dean, in my opinion, uh, we're still failing in terms of, you know, putting so much money into enforcement and incarceration and less in education and, uh, rehabilitation. And we need to be specific when we're talking about there's still too many people that, that are in jail on, on minor drug charges. And, and that is not the place for them to be. Now, we'll say this, fentanyl is a problem, no doubt about that, because fentanyl is killing people. But still, I think our enforcement strategies are still out of touch of what's actually going on on the ground. 

REVEREND DEAN: (04:39)
I, I would agree with that, and I, I, I address that in a moment, but I wanna get your thoughts on that, uh, on that as well, Neil. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (04:47)
Yeah, I, I definitely agree with the chief on this regarding, uh, levels of incarceration and, and the money that we spend and which, which causes us, um, you know, to, to not focus at the level we should on the, the issue of addiction, which spans even beyond drugs mental health is, is, is really the focal point of a lot of our issues, but mainly when it comes to, to drug abuse. Um, and, and let me just say that, Dean, you know, and you, you know, my position, what it's been for a very long time, um, regarding the, the war on drugs in this country. Um, but I think a lot of it just has to do with the ignorance surrounding the, the whole war on drugs. Uh, a lot of it has just has to do with decades upon decades of, of, of propaganda, of misinformation that has been fed to us, uh, citizens going all the way back to the early 19 hundreds. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (05:43)
Um, and that's, that's a whole nother story. But basically, the ignorance that we have surrounding drug use, drug abuse enforcement, um, we use fear tactics to keep people in this place of ignorance. Um, and, uh, I, I think that we, at somewhere in the future, we're gonna have to make this turn. And hopefully with the availability of information today, it's a good thing and a bad thing, because you can pretty much find anything you, any bit of information you want on any topic today using the internet. This, the problem is, are you getting the good information? Do you know how to filter that information? Do you know how to corroborate information and make sure you're getting good information and facts and truth? Um, the problem is many people only access one or two sources of information, and they don't compare it to the many sources of information regarding a topic out there. So they're, they're getting misinformation. And we can talk a little bit about misinformation as we go forward, as relates to some of the other issues you brought up here today at, at your opening. 

REVEREND DEAN: (06:54)
Thank you. Um, yeah, I, I, uh, again, I'm looking here. What was the date on that? Uh, October 9th, 2014. Our other guest here, chief McClellan, uh, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle for his comment that he, he was on my radio show and, and said that he, uh, seized the drug war as a miserable failure. And that started a whole avalanche of things. The, the, I I noted the, the Chronicle quoted your statement chief, uh, six times within their editorials and, and news reports, et cetera, et cetera, exposing this, which led to me being able to, uh, make friends with the then or coming up district attorney Kim Aug, who helped to sway things on the drug war. It got the mayor to come on my show. It got the sheriff to come on my show. Um, and I wanna say this to, to both of you, after the Harding Street bust, I have been unable to get, and we can explain more about the Harding Street bust, but I've been unable to get anybody from the sheriff, or the police chief, or the mayor or anyone to come on my show because they cannot defend what was happening there. 

REVEREND DEAN: (08:09)
That was the ugly side of the drug war, which showed how horrible it can fall. And, um, I, I don't know. I, I don't know what I'm saying here, other than it, I, I, I tried to call these people and email them, and they ignore me. They, they will not respond. They cannot defend this. And would you respond to that thought, please? Chief McClellan? 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (08:35)
Well, uh, Dean, I see this war on drugs is very, very similar to, uh, when law enforcement was using the wrong strategy to try to address prostitution for years and years and decades, law enforcement went after, uh, the women that was being trafficked. They were the ones going to jail. They were the ones that were trying to take off the streets. They, they were the ones that we were putting in prison. And all of these people, the pimps and all the folks that were exploiting these young women, I mean, we wasn't doing anything to them. So now, human trafficking, you know, prostitution is looked in a whole different light. We actually try to go after the people that have trafficked these young women or, or young men, and put the enforcement on the people that are exploiting, uh, the folks that are out here, uh, you know, selling their bodies, um, you know, on the, uh, sometimes under the threat of, uh, you know, being beaten or killed. 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (09:49)
So that's what we have to do with the war on drugs. We have to change our strategy. And if, if you go to jail or prison, I know here in Texas, and I can speak for Texas, and you look at the people that are incarcerated for using drugs, uh, I would say probably about 80% of them or, or some type of minorities. And I really don't know any minorities that only any ships and large boats, uh, that's transporting, yeah, cocaine and all of these drugs into the United States, they don't own planes and boats and, and all of these things that, uh, that, that get drugs into this country. Now, one could argue if America didn't have the insatiable appetite for drug use, they wouldn't be coming into the country. There's something to be said about that, it, no doubt about it, but we, we have to keep going. We, we have to. Certainly, we should have learned our lesson about, uh, these low level, uh, drug arrests, uh, people on the street that people have been caught up in addiction. Like the major said, uh, some of these people are suffering from mental health issues, all of those things. We we're not addressing the root cause of the problem. 

REVEREND DEAN: (11:18)
Very, very true, sir. And, and be Neil, I want to get your thoughts there as well, but I want to throw this in as well. At this very moment, we have, uh, a goal of exposing autocrats rich folks who, who raped young girls, maybe decades ago, but that's being exposed on the steps, the Congress, and to, um, to the televisions around the world. Uh, president Trump actually had a, a flight of planes fly over a discussion that these women were having there in the steps of Congress to distract them, to take away their ability to actually express their opinions. Uh, they are fighting like demons to control this information on who were the pimps of these girls back decades ago. Um, Neil, your thoughts, sir? 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (12:14)
Yeah, I'm glad you added that. Um, so, you know, chief, you said something about prostitution, so I'm using that as an analogy. So I'm gonna ask you, Dean, what's, what's the oldest profession known to Mandy? 

REVEREND DEAN: (12:32)
I think it is prostitution, 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (12:34)
Right? Oh, no, it's sales man. It's sales . Yeah. Sale has to be be done before the, the act, right? So, so here's my point. You 

REVEREND DEAN: (12:43)
Got me. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (12:44)
I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something here about consensual adult behavior, right? When you, when you prohibit consensual, and notice I said adult behavior, you know, as you're talking about this, this Epstein case, we're not talking about adults with Epstein, we're talking about children. That's not consensual adult behavior. But when you prohibit consensual adult behavior, whether it's prostitution, whether it's drugs and drug sales and drug use, whether it's something else, whether it's gambling to people, just to adults, decide that they want to enter into a, a gambling contract of some sort. My point is this, when you prohibit any of that consensual adult behavior, you then push it underground. And that's where it becomes very problematic for those who, who still choose to engage, whether it's using drugs, because, you know, when you push it underground, it becomes, the drugs become tainted, they become problematic. They, they move from a place of being natural to these places like Fentanyl. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (13:49)
Uh, instead of, uh, uh, of, of opiate, true opiate based drugs, you now move into a place of chemical, chemically based drugs. Uh, another one is, is like meth. And we know the problems that we have with the use of meth and, and, and, and, and health relative to that. Um, even with marijuana, when it was underground, it's still underground, but we now see it moving into a place of legality in this country and in other countries. But now you have a pla, now you have a chance to regulate it. Now you have a chance to control the quality of it. Now you have a chance to make sure that it's not laced with a fent, fentanyl or PCP or any other contaminants, because you have to understand that adults are going to enter into business with one another, whether you like the business or not. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (14:40)
So you have to make sure it is as safe as possible. And I'll mention this, this one activity, and then I'll just comment quickly on this ing thing. But think about boxing one of the most deadly sports that we have. But we make it as safe as possible because we, we legalize it. We have doctors ringside, we have rules and regulations and, and, and a governing body to make sure as these two men and now women go into this ring to pummel each other, we make sure that it is safe as possible. But if we had prohibit, if we completely prohibit boxing, it's not going to stop boxing. We'll just find dead bodies in barns and warehouses and other buildings across this country, because people are still going to engage into this deadly sport. So we regulate it. We make it as legal, I mean, as safe as possible, even though we may not like it. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (15:42)
We may not agree with it morally like in prostitution, but I've been to Amsterdam, I've seen how they regulate and control prostitution, and they don't nearly have the issues that we have with human trafficking for prostitution and young women and young boys, because those, despite how you feel about the morally who morally who choose to go pay for this service, they're gonna do it anyway. But if you make it legal for them to do it with adults who consent to do it, it's a much safer environment, not just for those who engage, but also for our young people, our kids, dramatically reducing the level of child, uh, trafficking for the business of prostitution. So consensual adult behavior should never be prohibited. We need to regulate it and control it and make it as safe as possible. 

REVEREND DEAN: (16:44)
Thank you, uh, friends, that was, uh, major Neil Franklin, now the retired executive director from Law Enforcement Action Partnership. We also have with us the former police chief of, uh, Houston, Texas, Charles McClellan. Now, uh, ne Neil, you touched on marijuana being controlled. We have a situation here in Texas where they've had, uh, two sessions. They're thinking of doing a third session to talk about banning marijuana or legalizing marijuana, or having a big discussion. They, they can't seem to get their stuff straight. But, uh, the, the point I guess I want to get to is that, uh, I don't know, a month ago, the, uh, the vice governor, what, whatever his name is, um, Patrick, Dan Patrick, uh, he stated he was in a room full of reporters, and he had a table full of, you know, prepackaged, uh, uh, products, you know, gummies and, and other products you could buy at these head shops. 

REVEREND DEAN: (17:37)
And he's holding it up. He says, does anybody want this? Take it home where you might die? And that's just so preposterous for, for anybody to say that in this day and age, that stuff's been sold for years Now, here in Texas, it hasn't killed anybody, hasn't injured anybody, hasn't sent, maybe sent a little kid to the hospital. 'cause he fell asleep after eating a gummy. But, and they call that an overdose, but the fact is, in a couple of hours, he wakes up and he feels just fine. And it's just a bunch of propaganda and fear being slung about, because the alcohol industry, or maybe the cigarette industry, I don't know. But these guys get money to lean one way or the other. And seems, uh, governor Abbott is leaning towards legalization. And, and Patrick is leaning towards, uh, control, you know, non-control. What he wants to do is make it where this stuff is. And I hate to say it made by criminals. Um, like me, when I was younger, I, I grew weed. I sold weed. I didn't hurt anybody ever. And who knows what might be in a package of that they sell, because you just don't know what people will do to make a profit. And we've certainly learned that with fentanyl, as you indicated. Uh, there, Neil, um, Charles, tell me if I'm wrong. What, what am I saying there that, that makes sense or doesn't? 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (18:57)
Well, you gotta understand that what's going on here in Texas is politics. Yeah. But it, it, it, you have to understand how politics control this issue. Because if you take a survey or a poll of all Texans that are eligible to vote, the majority survey after survey shows they support legalization of marijuana. Yeah. But the reason why you cannot get that legalized as passed is because of the makeup of the politics of the Texas legislature, the Lieutenant Governor and the governor. That's why it's so important, not just from a statewide and a federal perspective, but districting who represent what district, because right now, Texas is the red state, but the majority of voters may not be red. Yeah. You, you know what I'm saying? Sure. But because of district gerrymandering, this is how it affects issues on the ground level. And the reason why Lieutenant Governor can't get this thing completely banned is because of money. The people that are in business to do this lawfully have made a lot of money, and they've co they've, uh, committed a lot of money to political pacs and the governor understands that. 

REVEREND DEAN: (20:44)
Yeah, no, good point, sir. Thank you. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (20:47)
Chief is 100% correct on that PPM man. Mm-hmm . Politics, power, money. Mm-hmm . And that's, I mean, you just laid it out, what's happening in Texas, and that's also a snapshot of some other places across the country, um, that are refusing to move in this direction of, of ending, you know, the prohibition of, of marijuana and cannabis. Yeah. We still have problems within the legal market as far as maybe how something's packaged, you know, or the colors that they use for packaging attractive to kids. But let me tell you, without regulation, you can't control that. And you can't regulate anything that's prohibited. You leave, if you keep it prohibited, you leave it completely 100% in the hands of criminals, the cartels and, and others organized crime syndicate. But when you regulate it, then you place it into the hands of the people to make the changes that need to be made regarding anything from packaging to quality control, to price, to taxes, you name it. 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (21:53)
But whatever you can do to keep politics out of it, uh, you know, do it. So if you have the ability for, for instance, a voter referendum, like you said, chief, the voters want this. So, but when you have the gerrymandering where the voters can't decide through a referendum process, and it's up to the elected officials to decide , and you just laid out the problems with that, who represents the people, um, then you can't move from a place of, of, of, for instance, prohibition in this case, to legalization and regulation and control is what the people want. So they maintain that power. They, they, they don't want to relinquish the power to the people. 

REVEREND DEAN: (22:41)
No, that's it. Very 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (22:43)
Well said. 

REVEREND DEAN: (22:45)
Um, I, I wanna backtrack a little bit to something here that, uh, I don't know. You, you, you touched upon it, uh, like Trump wants to renege on the constitution's right, to citizenship. He wants to, uh, take away, you know, rights and here and there because he's so powerful and he needs it because he needs to do stuff. But my, my point I, I wanted to get to is that, uh, for many years I reported on this guy, uh, Duterte, who was the president of the Philippines, who, uh, had his, his troops and, and even citizens kill one another over drugs, uh, just, uh, kind of a mandate that we're gonna get rid of them. And, and they, they killed thousands of people. Mr. Duterte is s sitting at the Hague, uh, on trial for, uh, human rights abuse now, for what he did. And I, I think much of the people that are involved with Trump and supporting him and yelling him on and all of this, uh, are stepping into quicksand of a, a similar nature at this point. They believe that they're going to win this war on reality, and they will control the future. And it is my hope that they, they fall on their face and that they wind up in that same quicksand as Duterte. We're about to wrap up here, gentlemen. I, uh, uh, I wanna first go to Neil. Uh, your closing thoughts, sir? 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (24:06)
I just got one thing to say about Duterte and Philippines and these other countries that, that follow suit with killing people who use drugs. We're not talking about major traffickers. We're talking about people who use drugs. People are addicted to drugs. You know what, all the people who were killed there, you know what, they still have a drug, drug issue of addiction. Every country on this globe has an issue at some level with drug addiction. Um, people have been using mind altering substances ever since we've been on this planet, you know, and, and it's not gonna change, you know? So you can, you can be as, as, as ruthless as you want regarding human rights, uh, and this issue, but you're still going to have people using drugs for their own reasons, uh, be a good or bad, or however you feel about it. 

REVEREND DEAN: (25:01)
And, and Chief McClellan your thoughts, please. 

CHIEF CHARLES McCLELLAND: (25:04)
Well, let me just say this. When I was police chief, I was meeting with one of the foreign consulate generals here in Houston. Not gonna name the consulate General, but you could, if I gave you two guesses, you could, you could come up with it. And they had an issue that they wanted me to enforce. I said, I can't do that. There is no law, uh, that'll allow me to do that. And they said, well, you're the police chief, right? And I said, yes, I am. They said, well, you should be able to make the laws. I said, no, I, I'm part of the executive branch of government. I should not be allowed to make laws. They said, well, we don't understand how you can effectively do your job if they don't allow you to make the law, and you have to abide by the constitution. Doesn't that get in the way of you doing your job? I said, it can present challenges, but I tell you what, we're still a better country for following it. And I'll always follow it. And I said, here's what comes down to this is a very, very slippery slope. If you give the executive branch of government too much power, at some point in time, you're gonna regret it, and you're not gonna be able to take it back. That's it. That's 

NEILL FRANKLIN / LEAP: (26:31)
Where we are, unfortunately, on, on the national scale right now. We're moving into that deep water. Well said. Chief, 

REVEREND DEAN: (26:40)
Thank you both. Uh, gentlemen, I'm gonna have to wrap it up here. Uh, if you're out there listening, um, there, there's a part for you in helping to end this war on reality. I, I hope you pick up your armaments, whatever they might be, and set the work because we need to do it soon. These, uh, yahoos in Washington are moving fast to take over all, all our rights to all our futures. 

NEWBERGER AI: (27:05)
I done seen cowards. I done seen chicken Republican, not a among fickle as can be, won't protect no one. But they own money. They only need, but oh, Trump's got his coward just across some winner. They protected Epstein like a bunch of charm sims. And I done seen Tony. They all thes. When the boss say y they be grabbing their ankles and the list of rapists they keeping close to their, because they know if we seen it, he'd be under arrest. Only need, but two 

REVEREND DEAN: (28:19)
Big thanks to Neuberger AI for only need, but two. And I remind you once again that because of prohibition, you do not know what's in that bag. I urge you to please be careful and always remember that euphoria is a blessing, not a crime. 

Speaker 4: (28:36)


REVEREND DEAN: (28:36)
To the Drug Truth Network listeners around the world, this is Dean Becker for cultural baggage and the unvarnished truth Drug Truth Network archives are stored at the James a Bakker III Institute for Policy studies. Ja Dancing. To do , I should win a Nobel Prize.