REVEREND DEAN: (00:00)
Hello, my friends. Thank you for being with us on this special edition of Cultural Baggage. I am Reverend Dean Becker, and we have three guests with us today to celebrate the life of one Richard Lee, the founder of Oaksterdam University. We're going to, uh, start with his brother Donald, and then we'll, uh, hear from the current chancellor of the Oaksterdam University, Dale Sky Jones. And, uh, we'll then bring in Mr. Paul Armano, who's now the deputy Director of Normal and was a long time professor at Oaksterdam University. Um, but let's go ahead and and speak to his brother, Donald Lee. Donald, you, you came from a large family, right? Tell us about Richard. 

DONALD LEE: (00:46)
My, uh, there are five brothers in our family, and Richard is number four. I'm number five. About a year and a half behind, uh, bringing up the caboose. So we grew up together, school at the same time, et cetera. And, uh, Richard, uh, I'll tell you everything that y'all experience with Richard is just consistent with him throughout his life. And, uh, I know that y'all and so many people in the community experienced his political activism and his interest in policy reform. Uh, we knew him as really incredible, steadfast brother, very stoic, um, not about himself. A guy who all of our, uh, our children, our grandchildren, he's like the favorite uncle. Been looking after my mother here as she's still with us, but in need of a lot of care. He's been her principal caregiver and is so patient, so attentive. Um, we just find him to be an amazingly solid good guy and great brother and always has been. And the other stuff we think that he does, that we support, and I know my parents have been involved in with ramp, that's all just bonus. It's all icing on the cake. 

REVEREND DEAN: (02:12)
Dale Sky Jones, would you talk about your situation with Richard and, and how you remember the man 

DALE SKY JONES: (02:20)
My situation with Richard , this is the first I've spoken since we lost him, because I just couldn't figure out what to say. There's so much. Um, I joke that I lived between a rock and a hard place for the last, well, almost 20 years. Um, Richard and Jeff being old friends, my husband, um, I'll let you guess which one was the Rock and which one was the hard place. Uh, they switch back and forth a lot. And, um, just navigating between these, these two powerful individuals that were so quiet in their power, like they, in fact, they would, Richard would be off that we were spending this much time and attention on him and only him right now, this would, he, I, I, like, I can hear him grit his teeth at me of like, move it to the policy Dale and , I'm, that is, it was always about what he was trying to do, what he was trying to accomplish, the, the, the act and the actions and sharing and community and holding people accountable to their own words and actions and holding himself accountable to, it's, it's funny because we would switch on like who was dragging the other one along, on what the art of the possible was and, and talking each other into things where like he talked you into believing in yourself on a level that you would go do great things. 

DALE SKY JONES: (03:56)
We were in a battle. We were in a war together, and that didn't matter because we had to face the front. This wasn't about like internal strife. It was about what could we all agree on so that we could face the real problem, the real war on drugs. And it was that like fierce leadership, his ability to be human in front of the people that he led, that gave us not just the strength, but this belief that we could do it and that it was worth it and we could just go forth and conquer while telling us the risks. Like nobody ever said, we didn't warn you. Um, it was, it was all about setting people up for success, preparing for the worst, and helping us wing it while we changed the world, while he made us believe we could change the world. 

REVEREND DEAN: (04:53)
Exactly. Right. Uh, just instilling confidence, just, uh, blazing the trail. Uh, I had the opportunity to attend Oaksterdam University for a few days, uh, many years ago now. Mm-hmm . And I got to see the, uh, the transition, the, the professors coming in to, uh, talk about economics and about growing and about, uh, politics and, and the various, uh, components of being a, a cannabis entrepreneur. And one of those professors and a long-term friend of mine, guy I greatly appreciate for his knowledge is Professor Paul Armand. Paul, tell us about your experience at Oaksterdam, please. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (05:33)
Sure. Thank you, Dean. You know, when I approached Richard because I wanted to be a part of Oaksterdam, I saw the vision that he had for it, and I understood the importance of having an entity like Oaksterdam because at that time no such entity like that existed and I wanted to be a part of it. I wanted to go on that journey with him. And I don't think it can be stressed enough. The degree to which Richard Lee was a trailblazer. He paved this path that the movement is still in many ways on a course that he set. Yeah. Well, over a decade ago, you know, the idea of having a university, the idea of having a, a cannabis curriculum that's almost mainstream now, you have major credited universities around this country that are offering those sort of curricula, but it was Richard who was the impetus for that. And he was so humble about his accomplishments. He didn't even seem to mind the fact that he planted this seed and then the others were running with it, or in some cases imitating with it. He was okay with that because it was continuing to further the message. 

DALE SKY JONES: (07:05)
He encouraged it, Paul. It wasn't even that he tolerated it, he encouraged it. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (07:10)
Yeah. And that's, that's remarkable. That's, that's so unusual. But it spoke so much about Richard because he didn't seek the limelight. He didn't want any of that. He let his actions speak for him, and his actions carried such weight. You know, we worked together on the Proposition 19 campaign, and I still maintain, you don't have legalization in 2012 in Colorado and Washington without Richard and others, of course, but without Richard taking the lead and saying, we're gonna go for it in 2010, we're going to show the world this can be done. And he did. And like everything else, folks have been picking up the ball and running with the path that he set ever since he showed that these plans, these strategies could and would work. And he was so brave and courageous because he was doing it at a time where very, very few people would stand up and say, I'm willing to take this risk. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (08:14)
I'm willing to put my resources where my beliefs are, I'm willing to take on the federal government. And the last thing I, I just wanna say, because I think it was so unique about Richard, is I can't think of anyone else who so elegantly blended an entrepreneurial spirit with activism mm-hmm . Because at the end of the day, Richard was, he was an advocate, he was an activist, he was also an entrepreneur, he was also a businessman. He was opening and financing businesses routinely, and then using the profits from those endeavors to funnel that money back into the movement. And it really hadn't been done to that degree before, and it certainly hasn't been done since. And its contributions were so important because of that. So I'll, I'll really miss the man terribly, but at a minimum we're left with his legacy and his contributions. Those are going to live on indefinitely. 

DONALD LEE: (09:20)
You know, if I can, if I can say something on that, because I remember a conversation I had with him many years ago. I think I was out, out in California visiting him. And, uh, we were talking about some of this, and, and what he told me was that it was all about building community. Mm-hmm . You know, when talking about hi, inspiring others to do the work, that was the main thing, not for him to do it. And especially for him not to get credit or any sort of recognition. It was about seeing the community grow. And, uh, we saw him opening these businesses and being successful, and, and he, he said to us, Don, it's not my money. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (10:10)
Uh, 

DONALD LEE: (10:11)
It's not my money. When he, when these businesses were profitable, he never identified it as his money. I, I said, wait, you're putting a lot of this of, of your money brother into this campaign. He said, it's not my money. It's the community. Is the community that he was hoping to see grow and build and result in, in, in you folks today. 

DALE SKY JONES: (10:37)
Go back to what you said about business. Business was he viewed business as activism. And part of the point was to show that cannabis was good business. That instead of this being criminalized, instead of this being contraband, it should be a commodity that we tax control and regulate it. And instead of enriching violent drug cartels and criminalizing on a level that has made America the, you know, imprisonment nation around the world, especially of young black and brown and indigenous people, specifically that showing that this was good business. That this could be regulated instead of criminalized. This was never about legalizing weed. This was about legalizing people and freedom. The freedom of choice around something that has not killed anyone other than a couple tons falling off a truck and crushing them. That's about the only way that, that you can hurt someone with this. And where the police priorities were around having our local Oakland beat cops come in and say hi, and keep our streets safe as they went after rape, murder, crime against others. 

DALE SKY JONES: (11:54)
That, that, that's what Richard was trying to show. He believed in real estate. He believed in advertising. Fill the empty holes, fill the blight, clean it up, clean your neighbor's front stoop while you're at it, be a good neighbor who was part of our prerequisites along with all the legal programs. Well, still is, nothing's changed there. We still offer that as part of the basis of all of our learning is, is how to do good business because you, you have to self-regulate in order to show that this could be regulated. Richard put on the wall quality training for the cannabis industry. He a lot of people off by calling the movement an industry. And he did that to be taken seriously, Paul, I agree, 2012. Never, ever in our wildest dreams could have happened in those two states. If we hadn't have taken the risk in 2010. 

DALE SKY JONES: (12:51)
Nothing would've happened in New Jersey, New York, dc anywhere else in this world. Had Richard not put all of his profits into Prop 19, he wiped himself out financially and most of those businesses that he invested in, he didn't, he didn't keep any of the back end. He literally just, it was a seed investment gift to people just trying to get off the ground themselves. He offered a safe place and space for people to figure out how to see through their dreams and then go take it to their neck of the woods. And it's the over 10 it 110,000 souls that we taught through jury immunity, through changing your local law through elections and how much they matter and civic engagement, the importance of just showing up that can change your world where you are and your community. And that starts to add up. And a thousand flowers bloom. 

DALE SKY JONES: (13:57)
We are talking about a worldwide change that was instigated, that was fueled by this man and a few of his friends that believed in him. But I just, I wanna go back to one really important thing that's not just legalization. When we worked on, on Prop 19 in 2010 and said, Hey, voters of California, fourth largest economy in the world, what if we control tax and regulate cannabis? We never thought we would win. It was not even a concept. It was let's start the conversation. But then all of a sudden we were polling at 56% positive, and now the Fed had to pay attention. And now we had to have all of the, the sitting, um, all of the living former drug czars, as well as every sitting elected official in California threaten hell fire and damnation upon our souls. But what we did was we pushed an envelope in decriminalization in California, the fourth largest economy in the world to decriminalize cannabis. 

DALE SKY JONES: (15:02)
We forced the governor to sign a decrim bill that the very next year resulted in an 89% drop in arrests, 89% drop in arrests. That is nine out of 10 people not going to jail, but going home to their family, not having to show up in court, not losing their job, not losing their kids, nine outta 10 people in California. There's no single measure since that date that has resulted in the decriminalization of more human beings in this nation or around the world. And I challenge people to remember as we legalize that we decriminalize, because right now, the focus is just going to those that are under 21 for whom it is not yet legal. We're still criminalizing our youth over this ridiculous issue. We still don't have safe banking. We are not there yet, friends. So yes, we have changed the conversation through the election heard round the world. We're still continuing Richard's mission. We are not done yet here at Oaksterdam. And I challenge the rest of you to join me 

REVEREND DEAN: (16:07)
Again. That was Dale Sky Jones, the current, uh, chancellor at, uh, Oaksterdam. Um, I, I just wanted to throw this out that here in Texas, we, we have this paranoid, delusional thing going on. We're on one side, they want to ban THC products altogether. And they're a group of Democrats that are now saying they want to legalize cannabis here. It's just pick a side, you know, it's like, where is the evidence? And, and as you said, no one's ever died from use of cannabis, but they're so afraid of it. It is just so crazy, isn't it? Uh, your, your thoughts, they're Donald. I mean, are we ever gonna change it here in Texas? 

DONALD LEE: (16:45)
Well, unfortunately, you know it, or fortunately, it seems legislature did change it, uh, a number of years ago. And now they're trying to rethink that. And frankly, that impetus in my view, is coming from a theocratic impulse, uh, to control people. And I wanna mention the conversation I had with Richard just last week. And, uh, we were talking about this, we were talking about how, uh, he got involved and we reviewed how, you know, when he got hurt. And we haven't talked about the fact that, because it never defined him that he was a paraplegic. No. Uh, but when that happened, um, he found some medical literature that, uh, told him that drugs they were prescribing to him that didn't feel good, that gave him bad side effects, uh, could be replaced with cannabis. 

DONALD LEE: (17:42)
And, uh, that's commonly thought by many, that that's kinda what motivated him into the political activism. He told me, nah, it really wasn't it, that's just me, me. But two years later, about two years later, he was in line at a Jack in the Box in Northwest Houston, and all of a sudden was facing down, uh, the bear. He was in a friend's car. His wheelchair was back at the house facing down the barrel of a gun, being carjacked told to get out of the car. I can't he told them. So they lifted him, and he actually said they, they were gentle about how they lifted him outta the car, but they lifted him outta the car and put him on the ground, uh, next to the next to that drive through, and, uh, took the car, police came, could care less, they could care less. 

DONALD LEE: (18:42)
It really was not a high priority for them, and they would not even give him a ride less than a mile back to his home. Told him, well, go find a cab. He did. This is before cell phones mind you told him to go find a cab to go back to the house. And he thought, what has happened to protect and serve what has happened to the police in our society? And he identified the drug war as the corruptive influence on such an important part of our society. And that he told me that was what activated him. 

DALE SKY JONES: (19:22)
You're absolutely right, Donald. Um, that it was, it was not the accident. It was not, cannabis is medicine. And it wasn't just the cops reaction when they finally got there, it's how long it took them to show up in the first place. He sat there on that cold pavement for way too long, waiting for them to show up, and then they treated him like that. Yeah. And it, it was, it was absolutely the what are our cops doing? And this is a man, I mean, Donald, I would love for you, you know, I've, I've I've spent a lot of time with, with Anne, who's very politically astute. And because of your, your family's political ties, you know, Richard understood how to pull the levers of power that, that they were humans just like us. And I think that like growing up with politicians in the family showed him like, they're just like us. And, you know, they're, they're not magic. They're not special. Even if they're wealthy. They're just like us similar fears and, and approaches. And I'm just, I'm curious how that, like not just Richard's drive, but also just like this almost expectation of involvement, civic involvement that your family had. 

DONALD LEE: (20:53)
Well, that's a point, and something we probably take for granted in our family. Uh, my father, uh, and my mother, they were precinct chairman, which is when they were doing it. It's not a small thing. Uh, and for decades, decades, no, we never knew a time in our lives when our parents were not politically active. And, uh, they became active in this effort, as y'all know. Uh, but involving yourself in community, involving yourself in society, it's built in the DNA of our household. And so I think that contributed, uh, to it. But for me, Richard had a special sense, he had a special sense for it beyond the rest of us. I, I wanna really emphasize that, that he had a special sense, uh, for that. And he really identified that, as I said, corruptive force that prohibition, uh, was having on society. And he was out to change that fight it. 

REVEREND DEAN: (22:03)
Uh, thank you Donald. I, I I just wanted to interject a couple of things. Yes. He was very instrumental in the formation of another organization here in Texas, the Drug Policy Forum of Texas, which was fighting against the whole of prohibition, uh, outright across the board. And, uh, um, and, uh, speaking of a political family, Donald, your parents, Bob and Anne formed Republicans against marijuana prohibition as well. So, uh, it's, it's a, a family with a, a heart and a conscience. And, and I, I, I appreciate your whole family, Donald. Uh, yeah, 

DALE SKY JONES: (22:40)
Anne spoke, go ahead. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, Anne spoke, um, at, at, at multiple Republican conferences with national leaders about this issue. And without question, the entire Lee family, you know, it, it took a woman and man like Anne and Bob to raise a man like Richard. And, um, I, I also just hope to shout out a longtime friend Amy, Amy doctor, who also, um, lost someone close and, and helped keep Richard Strong and healthy for many years. Thank you, Dee. 

REVEREND DEAN: (23:09)
Uh, we're gonna have to close it out. I, I wanna give you each 30 seconds to kind of, uh, you know, share your thoughts. Paul, let's begin with you. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (23:20)
Sure. Again, I, I appreciate Dean, you giving us this forum, this platform to, to express ourselves. And Dale, thank you for joining. And Donald, thank you so much for adding the perspective of, of, of Richard as a sibling. Um, I, I think that's tremendously important. You know, I guess sort of the final thing I'd add is, is how much of Richard's actions in Oakland worked toward revitalizing that community at the time? I believe, Dale, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but the term Oaksterdam predated the university. It was a term that was used for the revitalization of this neighborhood in Oakland. And that was a revitalization that was largely being spearheaded by Richard Lee and his influence and his businesses. And again, that, that speaks to how much community was important to him. And again, it just speaks to how courageous the man was because he was engaging in these efforts and he was pushing these boundaries, and he was challenging the law. 

PAUL ARMENTANO: (24:38)
Marijuana was not legal in California, as you said, Dale wasn't even decriminalized yet at the time that he moved into Oakland. A city that, and frankly, a lot of people didn't wanna deal with and said, I'm going to revitalize this community. I'm going to make it a welcoming community for the people who live here and for people who wanna visit. And he started that process. And again, I just think, I think that's a really important part of his legacy as well. Um, and again, uh, like I said, Richard May not be with us anymore, but so much of what he did lives on and will continue to live on, and he has left a legacy that's nearly unmatched. 

REVEREND DEAN: (25:27)
Donald, uh, your, your closing thoughts, sir? 

DONALD LEE: (25:30)
Yeah. Well, thank you, uh, Dean, Paul and, and, and Dale. Thank you all for this. And, and thank you for all contributing to the community that became so important for him. For us, he was an inspiration. He was an inspiration every day. If there was anyone in this world that I've known that had a right to feel unlucky, it'd be a guy who had an accident at work and broke his back and became a paraplegic. He refused to let that define him. He refused to talk about it, refused to let it, uh, slow him down, refused to be anything but completely independent and strong. And if there's a day in my life that I go where I am, um, not whining, if I can ever, anytime I can do that, it's because he inspires me. And that's what will never leave. That will never go away. 

REVEREND DEAN: (26:35)
Uh, Dale, your, your thoughts, please. 

DALE SKY JONES: (26:39)
I feel like Richard has been with me, especially these last few days, and I'm grateful that he is finally free of a body that betrayed him and caused him so much pain. I feel he's like, he was a very tall, skinny man, , and I just see him standing there looking down, like just finally free of his burdens. And I, you know, he was my kid's favorite uncle too. I called him Godfather, but it was, um, how he cared for my family. For me. He was, uh, one of Jeff's best friends, and they took risks together on a level that only only individuals touched by the federal government and taking that risk, um, only they can understand that connection. Um, we are planning to celebrate Richard's life and legacy on Sunday, November 9th, and, uh, here locally in the Oakland area. So I invite everyone to go to oaksterdam.com, and I also ask folks if Richard touched you. 

DALE SKY JONES: (27:56)
You know, after the raid, I spreaded everything because I didn't want the DEA to be able to keep anything. Our raid was de it was not a DEA raid, it was actually an IRS raid, which good news meant that the DEA didn't get any of our student records. Get back in touch with us, get online, uh, social media, hashtag thanks Richard Lee, and we will find you email support@oaksterdamuniversity.com. And just come home. This is an opportunity for a homecoming. Richard Lee has been a hit of hope for so many, and we are not done yet. Richard Lee passed us this torch. 

REVEREND DEAN: (28:38)
Thank you again, folks. Um, I, I wanna thank, uh, Mr. Paul Armon, Dale Sky Jones, and Richard's brother Donald, thank you so much for being on the show, uh, reminding you once again that because of prohibition, you don't know what's in that bag. I urge you to please be careful and remember that euphoria is a blessing, not a crime.