The failure of Drug War is glaringly obvious to judges, cops, wardens, prosecutors and millions more, now calling for decriminalization, legalization, the end of prohibition. Let us investigate the Century of Lies.
_____________
Dean Becker: Oh yes my friends. This is indeed Century of Lies. My name is Dean Becker. We have already on line our guest. He is with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. Want to welcome now Mr. Bill Kleiber.
Let me tell you a little bit about Bill and the work he does. They network with people doing jail and prison ministry and this touches my heart because my father passed away well last year now but he was in prison ministry, worked with Bill Glass. He was in about fifteen different prisons here in Texas. We have got lots of them. He was just touching the surface.
But he did minister in fifteen of them. They orchestrate a symphony of care and encouragement. They serve a network hub for over sixty thousands individuals, ministries and churches here in North America. They work in concert to assist victims of crime, prisoners, former prisoners, corrections professionals and their associated families. Because believe me this drug war and its impact in these prisons impacts the families of these prisoner guards as well.
Their mission statement is Networking with individuals and organizations to collaborate in creating and implementing biblical solutions to the criminal justice field. I am told we do have Bill Kleiber with us. Hello sir.
Bill Kleiber: Hey. Can’t keep us off the air that easy.
Dean Becker: No, no somebody was trying, weren’t they. Yes sir. Well Bill I gave a little bit of introduction. Telling folks about Restorative Justice Prison Ministry and tell us a little bit about your history with the organization.
Bill Kleiber: Well I got locked up. I used to make I just made too much money. I used to think I was god. But the Houston police department took exception to that and I got locked up and having sold law books for fifteen years I got involved in the system. I said man this is not the way it’s supposed to be working. And when I got out, Emmett Solomon with Restorative Ministries.
I started as a volunteer as an activist for Unlock Your Vote and the National Right to Vote campaign. And I have been there now April I think it will be eight years. And it is just amazing to me the individuals that are willing to sacrifice their time and energy to come together as a community and say this is not working.
Dean Becker: Well I was also telling the listeners about my dad. He passed away middle of last year. He was eighty-four years old and last year he was still visiting the prisons. He was working with Bill Glass.
But it is a it is something that brought me and him together if you will. I was working as a drug reformer and he learned who was in there and why they were in there and for how little they were in there and how long they were in there and that’s where he and I had a great meeting of the minds. I considered him to be my greatest ally.
Bill Kleiber: Yeah. I was just talking with Emmett. Emmett retired fifteen years ago as director of the chaplaincy for Texas Department of Corrections. And he started this ministry to bring people together to help victims of crime and prisoners, former prisoners and corrections professionals. We help a lot of corrections officers too, because the system is not working. The problem is now it’s become a big business. In Texas there is a four billion dollar business locking people up.
And you can see just in the last week there’s been newspaper articles where the Harris County is no longer going to prosecute people for residue. They find paraphernalia or something with a minute piece of residue in there and want to lock them for two to five years. And its just terrible. And the courts cannot accommodate this. They have got over nine thousand people locked up down there in Harris County alone waiting for two years to get to court. And that’s nine thousand people who refuse to plead to a lesser case.
Dean Becker: Well and Bill, let’s talk about that. The fact is you get locked up if you cant afford bail, if you cant afford a real attorney cause that court appointed attorney ain’t on your side. If you can’t do that then you take the plea bargain. You take the offer because you don’t want to wait two years to be convicted of a one year sentence half the time, right?
Bill Kleiber: Right. Generally this is what happens. You get up there and you get locked up and they wait six weeks twelve weeks and somebody from the DA’s office will come by and say, you know we are really backed up here and if you are willing to sign this agreement here then we’ll get you out today. And especially younger people who don’t know how the system works unfamiliar with the judicial process then they’ll find anything to get out of the because it’s not a good thing to be in there.
When I came out of there I had walking pneumonia out of the Harris County jail. And you find this. And then the worst part of this is that Texas has the longest probation in the United States, ten years probation. And most people can’t make ten years probation much less if you are marginal. If you’re in poverty or something like that there’s no way that you can pay all the fees and make all the appointments and do all of these things. So you can do nine years and nine months and if you fail to do it then pow they pop you in for whatever the initial sentence was on that case.
Dean Becker: Yeah um Bill let me interrupt you one second. I in today’s New York Times magazine there’s an article, Prisoners of Parole. And they are talking about you know the relationship of fairness and trust between the police and the community seems to have been doomed to fail.
Given the circumstance and the use of snitches and informants and twisting of facts and so forth that relationship, that respect has been disappearing over the years. Your thoughts on how we restore that respect. What are we going to do?
Bill Kleiber: Well look there’s a lot of law enforcement agencies now that are advocating change over criminalization because in years past, decades past law enforcement was a respected part of the community. Now they’re adversaries to the community. People don’t go to the policeman and say, hey I have got a problem over here. I have got a problem. You know the used to have the beat cop and whatnot. They don’t do anymore.
Now it’s put a wall between the community and law enforcement. They feel like they’re enemies against each other. You know people don’t want law enforcement and rightfully so because if you get involved in the system now even if you are a victim of a crime it’s just atrocious what you have to suffer.
Dean Becker: Bill and let me let me kind of bring it a little more home if you will. And the fact is even for murderers and rapes and kidnappings too often people are unwilling to go against these actors because many times those people committing those crimes are dealing drugs and they have the money and they have the guns and they have the gangs and the support network and it just strikes fear into the hearts of so many to to go against that.
And the power and the money and the guns come from guns I mean excuse me from drugs and the and the trade that inflates the prices seventeen thousand percent. Your thoughts.
Bill Kleiber: Well first of all we know this. This is not rocket science stuff and that is why the Restorative Justice Ministries and the Texas Criminal Justice Coalition and people like this have moved.
This last session we passed a legislation where possession of less than an ounce is now a misdemeanor now of marijuana. See? And that is going to change things a lot. When I first started going to the bus station seven years and meeting people, I met guys in there that were doing twenty years for possession of one marijuana cigarette or thirty years for an ounce of marijuana. That’s the fears we had back in the sixties. And now we passed that legislation. That’s going to drastically reduce it.
There is harder drugs now, we need to do the same there. We need to bring that under the purview, tax it, control it whatever but we don’t need to be enabling these cartels. All of this stuff that is happening in Mexico is going to roll right in to the United States if we don’t do something to intercede.
Dean Becker: You bet it is. Friends, we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber. He is with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. A man who spent sometime behind bars and knows the problems that those being released encounter.
And Bill we talked about this on the phone the other day. You get out of jail and in every state immediately I think and for Texas forever you can’t exonerate your history of that crime so you are denied credit, you are denied housing, you’re denied education, you’re denied a job, you know maybe even a driver’s license or a professional license.
Let’s talk about the impact or the the the lure that’s always out there, the black market, the criminal mindset that’s always the only thing left for many of these folks. Your thoughts on that.
Bill Kleiber: Well I tell you when I first came aboard I started answering this one eight hundred number that was established seven years ago. And this old boy rolls out of prison, he went home. And we had met him when he got out of prison, told him hey if you need some help call this number. So he called.
He got home. His family, he had a wife and three kids. There was no food in the cupboard, the water was turned off, the electricity was turned off. He called me says you know can you help me. So I spent about two hours on the phone and while I was talking to him we got the water turned on. The church came over there and got his electricity turned on. They walked in while I am talking to him, provided, brought some groceries and whatnot and you could…
I could tell it then. I said look we got you straightened out here and I said man you are sounding so much better over the phone. He says yeah he says I was pretty angry when I got home. I said yeah I thought you were going to go down and rob the seven eleven. He says seven eleven? I rob banks.
Haven’t you ever heard of Willie Sutton? What Willie Sutton said? I said no. He says they ask Willie, they say Willie, why do you rob banks? He says that’s cause that is where the money is. And I listened and that’s that was really a turning point for me from not just advocating the right to vote but to say these people need some help here.
And for seven years I have met an average of one hundred forty-five men a day, that’s thirty-three thousand a year let out from Huntsville alone, just from Huntsville, from the penitentiary, not counting the state jails, the county jails.
And these people go back and I know from personal experience you can’t, I can’t go back to work for a major corporation. They won’t hire me with a felony conviction. You can’t get food stamps if you have a drug conviction. You can’t get into any decent housing. You you’re hands are just tied.
And then they live under the bridge not eat not and not life cheat kill or maim. And it’s just not going to happen. Especially I tell you who will do it. The single guys will do that but who won’t do it are the people with families. They are going to do whatever it takes to survive.
And it’s our responsibility as American citizens to provide for that. You don’t need to be… we have created this whole third class of lepers, we treat them like lepers. And it’s not just them but their families. And when you have communities like Houston with forty years of tough justice…
There’s a whole third class of families that are just couch surfing from one couch to a neighbors couch to a relatives couch. I have met them. There’s twelve year old kids that aren’t even in school. And then we have created this whole seventy percent of the youth are going to if we have been locked up seventy percent of our kids are going to follow us right to prison. It’s ridiculous.
Dean Becker: It’s it’s more than a million kids. I wait more than two million kids have one or more parents behind bars. It’s outrageous and we expect them to thrive and to prosper none the less. Our compassion is lacking substance I would say.
Bill Kleiber: Well somewhere we have got to start accepting responsibility because there is a holocaust going. This is no different. And people I hang out with a lot of Christians and they say, you’re being too harsh Bill. But it’s my belief that this is no no it’s just like the holocaust over there in Germany that they let Hitler get away.
We are allowing our government to do things in our name and it’s not being put out on the news. That’s why I’m I’m here tonight talking with you to speak the truth. We let these fear mongers go out and broadcast the police blotter and put fear in people’s hearts. But they don’t talk about the solution. What I like about is the solutions. There are solutions to this and I know because I have witnessed it personally and I am part of it.
Dean Becker: Right.
Bill Kleiber: And there are people that help me and I am willing to help other people.
Dean Becker: Well and and um in my own way that is what I am doing with this show as well. I want to make it where the well the current generation and the next generation doesn’t face the likelihood of losing their their house, their car, their cash, their children, their worldly goods and their licenses and years if not decades of their life for having plant products in their pocket. It makes absolutely no sense.
Friends we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. We are going to take a thirty second break here and when we come back I hope you’re out there listening.
You’ll give us a call. Anywhere in North America it is toll free to call 1 877 9 420 420. Locally you can call 713 526 5738. Let’s talk about Restorative Justice. Lets talk about what should be, what might be, what ought to be the future regarding drug policy. We’ll be right back.
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Criminals get so emboldened
Rip you off thinking your holding
Can’t tell the policemen what you know
Got no recourse to the law
Bad guys duct tape and beat you
They are just looking for that easy score
They will rob rape and kill you
Cause we have got no recourse to the law
_____________
Dean Becker: Got no recourse to the law. We do have a couple of calls coming in. we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber of Restorative Justice Ministry of North America.
Bill I tell you what. Soon as Laura gets us handled here we’re going to jump on the phones here. Let you take a couple of questions from the listeners. I want to thank you for joining us and really for having the courage, the willingness to speak these truths.
Bill Kleiber: You can turn it up so you can hear.
Dean Becker: Uh Bill, are you with us?
Bill Kleiber: Yes sir.
Dean Becker: Don’t turn it up!
Bill Kleiber: Hahahaha.
Dean Becker: Alright, well let’s go to Tim on line one. You’re on the air sir.
Caller: Yeah, I actually just wanted to make a comment about what Mr. Kleiber was saying. I just got done reading that book, Three Cups of Tea by about the guy Mortensen who’s building houses in or building schools for children in Afghanistan and and Pakistan and that’s his way of fighting terror.
And I just wanted to point out that there’s a lot of parallels there. I think a lot of what we could do is education. And I think that would go a long way to breaking that cycle. I just wanted to put that out there and get maybe his comments on it.
Dean Becker: OK, thank you Tim. Bill, you have some thoughts on that?
Bill Kleiber: Well education is a very important facet to this. See the thing is we are not hearing the whole truth and most Americans don’t know about the ramifications of this tough justice. And that is why it is important for us to not just to talk about it on the radio but to talk about it among ourselves and more importantly is it’s not enough just to talk about it. We have got to step out and take part in it.
I have helped start community endeavors in Houston and Fort Worth and different places because we know that helping these guys getting out for every dollar we invest in reentry we save three dollars. And we need to start stop building prisons and start building roads and schools and hospitals and other things that contribute towards our welfare rather than just building these huge human warehouses where we take bad people and and and create worse people.
Dean Becker: Yes we do. I wanted to also put in my two cents on this and that is if we were to face the situation where another country lets say Afghanistan or Pakistan wanted to come to America and find our one thousand craziest people and kill them, well there might be a thousand in one, maybe the thousand and first being yours truly because there is no logic behind this. Uh who has been holding the longest? Let’s go to Will on line two. You are on the air.
Caller: Hey, I want to thank you for your show.
Dean Becker: Thank you.
Caller: And I just want to, you’re talking about the government doing things in our name and you’re right. And I want to ask you you and your guest your thoughts about men like Ron Paul, congressman Paul who publicly stands for the legalization of marijuana, not the decriminalization but the legalization of it and the constant ridicule that he receives for that on the media and from both parties. He is ridiculed endlessly that he wants everyone to smoke pot since he is for the legalization of marijuana.
Dean Becker: Alright Will. Your thoughts, Bill?
Bill Kleiber: Well, look. Ron Paul has been a long standing advocate for for balancing things. And unfortunate thing is when people aren’t feel like they are not being listened to they have to revert to radicalism. They have to step things up just like these terrorists and whatnot. When they are not being listened to they gotta they gotta notch up on that.
What we need to do is we need to listen to people like Ron Paul and other people and we need to seek a balance. Our criminal justice system has swung too far one way. The victims of crime and people involved in in corporate this four billion dollar business have accelerated the sentencing.
We created a fifty-nine new felonies this last session. And our pendulum is swung too far to the right. And we need to come back to a more centrist view of these things. The most important part is one we need to get better educated about the truth.
Dean Becker: Yes we do. Once again we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber, Restorative Justice Ministry North America. I wanted to throw in my two cents here. I have had Ron Paul on the radio with us twice and we have talked extensively about the need to legalize drugs.
And again he wants to destroy the cartels. He wants to kill Osama’s cash cow, eliminate the reason for the violent gangs. And yet he is ridiculed for that by ignorant people or at least people who pretend to be ignorant on the subject and who refuse to come on this program to defend their stance. I’ll tell you that. Let’s go to Justin on line three. You’re on the air.
Caller: Yes I just had a comment about what you guys are talking about with the probation departments.
Dean Becker: Yes sir.
Caller: It’s very ridiculous. I was put on probation here out in Fort Bend County and what they put you through if you come out with a felony you are required to keep a job first of all which is very hard when you have a felony to acquire a job. Second of all it’s all the fees that they make you pay. You have to go in three times a week for drug testing, pay for that. All the classes you have to go to you have to pay for that. It’s a money well…
Bill Kleiber: There’s a time delay.
Dean Becker: OK we have got some kind of double talk and Bill, was that you? I don’t know we are trying to keep a conversation going here. Let’s see. OK Justin, I wanted to address that thought. I mean, you are absolutely right.
The fact is so many people think that drug treatment, that urine testing that somehow involving themselves into your life is going to make your life better. But when you are jumping through the hoops and making those appointments. And a lot of people don’t even have a car. Some people when they get out are denied a driver’s license for god’s sake, so it really complicates. It’s like they want that drug user to jump through every hoop and to prove himself worthy of life in this country.
And the fact of the matter is is that you know many times people the only reason they’re caught is because marijuana stinks. Which then which then gives the cops the quote right to search your car and then they might find marijuana or they might find a little bag of something else and suddenly you’re a bad person. It’s not because of your behavior, it’s not because of anything you have done. It’s simply because pot stinks. We’ve got just a couple of minutes left. I have got two other calls. Justin thank you for listening. Who is next up? John on line one. Your thoughts?
Caller: Yeah I just have a story to relate about you know trying to help the cops in the so called drug war. About three years ago here in Rosenburg I was staying at a hotel. And I called the cops and I rendezvous with them a little a couple of blocks away and tell them there’s some guys, a cocaine family dealing cocaine out of this hotel. And then the guy, the cop does nothing about it. He says they are probably gone by now anyway.
Then the next night I call them back again and say look I you know I think I am in danger these guys are you know thinking about putting a hit on me. Then they have me put in the Austin State Hospital for being so called delusional. And and so this cop in the drug war, he didn’t want to do nothing about it you know. So in the rest of my life now I will never ever help the cops in any way shape or fashion to convict or apprehend a drug suspect. I just want to make that comment.
Dean Becker: Will thank you for that and look, I I certainly understand, oh it was John, I’m sorry. John I certainly understand that and I want to say you know the fact of the matter is we we we spend all this time, money, and effort, manpower, et cetera trying to quote stop the flow of drugs and yet it never will.
And what we have to is realize that there’s a more common sense way to go about this. Tax, regulate and actually control these drugs. Who makes it, what’s in the bag, what’s the content, percentage and all that so that there will be fewer overdose deaths, zero diseases contracted and less access for our children but we.
It’s a pipe dream. It’s a hundred year old pipe dream of men who have long since died. It’s a rain dance and we just keep hoping that eventually it it’ll rain you know no drugs. I don’t know. We have got time for one more call. Would John thank you so much. Let’s go to Will. Please, make it quick sir. Hello, Will?
Caller: I got cut off and I want to thank you for your show again. If we are going to change these laws we have got to change the lawmakers. And you talk about education, educate the people as to what liberty can do for us.
Dean Becker: Right.
Caller: Like we have someone running for governor for the state of Texas right now [ ] who is a libertarian minded person and we need to get out of this party system. We have got to change the lawmakers before we can change the law. And I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Thanks a lot for your show. Good evening.
Dean Becker: Thank you Will. OK I am going to hand it to you first Bill. We are speaking with…
Bill Kleiber: Well look, this is the truth. We have the power. We have the vote. These corporations can lobby all they want and they have got this big money but the key to it is for us to become active, to get educated and to go out and vote.
And I don’t I don’t try to sway anybody to vote for anybody. I just want you to go get educated and go and vote. Get off our tails, turn off the TV, go talk to your representatives and tell them that we are tired of this tough justice. I don’t advocate soft justice, I advocate soft, smart justice.
Dean Becker: Right.
Bill Kleiber: There are a lot of things that we can do to make our system better and it’s up to us. This is our country. Get off your tails, get up and get involved with your community. I don’t care what it is.
Go down and volunteer at the church or the soup kitchen or whatever god puts on your heart. And and if you have questions or if you know somebody that needs some help, they can call us at 1 800 998 3004 or you look up Restorative Justice Ministry Network. And this is a nationwide movement. And we can do it. And it’s thanks to shows like this and thank you listeners for investing your time to listen and educate yourself because we can make the difference. We got we got in this bind and we can get out of it.
Dean Becker: You know I can’t remember exactly which part of the discussion, which show it was in but I referenced tonight that seventy-six percent of Americans are for medical marijuana. And in the same Zogby poll they asked the opinion, they asked those same participants, what’s your opinion, how many people agree with you. And some seventy percent, yeah seventy percent of the people thought most people disagreed with them. So actually their perception of other’s thoughts was you know one hundred and eighty degrees off.
I don’t know if I said that right but basically seventy-sic percent were in favor of medical marijuana but didn’t think seventy-five percent agreed with them. I don’t know. I still don’t feel comfortable with the way I am saying it. But the point of it is is that there’s more of us that agree, that understand this and that are willing to do something about it. Tens seconds real quick, the website again there Bill.
Bill Kleiber: www.rjmn.net or it’s just look up Restorative Justice Ministry Network. And the truth is a hundred percent of us probably agree that we need to make some changes and we can do it.
Dean Becker: Alright, thank you.
_____________
He’s the king of the cowboys
Of the terrorist cartels and gangs
He’s the purveyor of madness
Yet the masses his praises do sing
He is our only salvation
The way and the light
Bow down before his logic
For only he knows what is right
He’s the drug czar
Wages an eternal war
_____________
Dean Becker: Alright my friends, this is Dean Becker wrapping it up for you here on the Century of Lies show. I want to thank all the callers. I want to thank Bill Kleiber of Restorative Justice Ministry of North America.
And I think this is the year we are going to get it done. I really do. I think it’s that people ask one another their opinions on this and find out that the majority of us do agree and that it is time to make that change and that eventually our politicians will hear the truth of this matter.
And I remind you there is no truth, no justice, logic, no reason for this drug war to exist. Please visit our website, endprohibition.org.
Prohibido istac evilesco.
Please visit endprohibition.org
_____________
For the Drug Truth Network this is Dean Becker, asking you to examine our policy of Drug Prohibition.
The Century of Lies.
This show produced at the Pacifica studios of KPFT, Houston
Transcript
Century of Lies, January 10, 2009
The failure of Drug War is glaringly obvious to judges, cops, wardens, prosecutors and millions more, now calling for decriminalization, legalization, the end of prohibition. Let us investigate the Century of Lies.
_____________
Dean Becker: Oh yes my friends. This is indeed Century of Lies. My name is Dean Becker. We have already on line our guest. He is with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. Want to welcome now Mr. Bill Kleiber.
Let me tell you a little bit about Bill and the work he does. They network with people doing jail and prison ministry and this touches my heart because my father passed away well last year now but he was in prison ministry, worked with Bill Glass. He was in about fifteen different prisons here in Texas. We have got lots of them. He was just touching the surface.
But he did minister in fifteen of them. They orchestrate a symphony of care and encouragement. They serve a network hub for over sixty thousands individuals, ministries and churches here in North America. They work in concert to assist victims of crime, prisoners, former prisoners, corrections professionals and their associated families. Because believe me this drug war and its impact in these prisons impacts the families of these prisoner guards as well.
Their mission statement is Networking with individuals and organizations to collaborate in creating and implementing biblical solutions to the criminal justice field. I am told we do have Bill Kleiber with us. Hello sir.
Bill Kleiber: Hey. Can’t keep us off the air that easy.
Dean Becker: No, no somebody was trying, weren’t they. Yes sir. Well Bill I gave a little bit of introduction. Telling folks about Restorative Justice Prison Ministry and tell us a little bit about your history with the organization.
Bill Kleiber: Well I got locked up. I used to make I just made too much money. I used to think I was god. But the Houston police department took exception to that and I got locked up and having sold law books for fifteen years I got involved in the system. I said man this is not the way it’s supposed to be working. And when I got out, Emmett Solomon with Restorative Ministries.
I started as a volunteer as an activist for Unlock Your Vote and the National Right to Vote campaign. And I have been there now April I think it will be eight years. And it is just amazing to me the individuals that are willing to sacrifice their time and energy to come together as a community and say this is not working.
Dean Becker: Well I was also telling the listeners about my dad. He passed away middle of last year. He was eighty-four years old and last year he was still visiting the prisons. He was working with Bill Glass.
But it is a it is something that brought me and him together if you will. I was working as a drug reformer and he learned who was in there and why they were in there and for how little they were in there and how long they were in there and that’s where he and I had a great meeting of the minds. I considered him to be my greatest ally.
Bill Kleiber: Yeah. I was just talking with Emmett. Emmett retired fifteen years ago as director of the chaplaincy for Texas Department of Corrections. And he started this ministry to bring people together to help victims of crime and prisoners, former prisoners and corrections professionals. We help a lot of corrections officers too, because the system is not working. The problem is now it’s become a big business. In Texas there is a four billion dollar business locking people up.
And you can see just in the last week there’s been newspaper articles where the Harris County is no longer going to prosecute people for residue. They find paraphernalia or something with a minute piece of residue in there and want to lock them for two to five years. And its just terrible. And the courts cannot accommodate this. They have got over nine thousand people locked up down there in Harris County alone waiting for two years to get to court. And that’s nine thousand people who refuse to plead to a lesser case.
Dean Becker: Well and Bill, let’s talk about that. The fact is you get locked up if you cant afford bail, if you cant afford a real attorney cause that court appointed attorney ain’t on your side. If you can’t do that then you take the plea bargain. You take the offer because you don’t want to wait two years to be convicted of a one year sentence half the time, right?
Bill Kleiber: Right. Generally this is what happens. You get up there and you get locked up and they wait six weeks twelve weeks and somebody from the DA’s office will come by and say, you know we are really backed up here and if you are willing to sign this agreement here then we’ll get you out today. And especially younger people who don’t know how the system works unfamiliar with the judicial process then they’ll find anything to get out of the because it’s not a good thing to be in there.
When I came out of there I had walking pneumonia out of the Harris County jail. And you find this. And then the worst part of this is that Texas has the longest probation in the United States, ten years probation. And most people can’t make ten years probation much less if you are marginal. If you’re in poverty or something like that there’s no way that you can pay all the fees and make all the appointments and do all of these things. So you can do nine years and nine months and if you fail to do it then pow they pop you in for whatever the initial sentence was on that case.
Dean Becker: Yeah um Bill let me interrupt you one second. I in today’s New York Times magazine there’s an article, Prisoners of Parole. And they are talking about you know the relationship of fairness and trust between the police and the community seems to have been doomed to fail.
Given the circumstance and the use of snitches and informants and twisting of facts and so forth that relationship, that respect has been disappearing over the years. Your thoughts on how we restore that respect. What are we going to do?
Bill Kleiber: Well look there’s a lot of law enforcement agencies now that are advocating change over criminalization because in years past, decades past law enforcement was a respected part of the community. Now they’re adversaries to the community. People don’t go to the policeman and say, hey I have got a problem over here. I have got a problem. You know the used to have the beat cop and whatnot. They don’t do anymore.
Now it’s put a wall between the community and law enforcement. They feel like they’re enemies against each other. You know people don’t want law enforcement and rightfully so because if you get involved in the system now even if you are a victim of a crime it’s just atrocious what you have to suffer.
Dean Becker: Bill and let me let me kind of bring it a little more home if you will. And the fact is even for murderers and rapes and kidnappings too often people are unwilling to go against these actors because many times those people committing those crimes are dealing drugs and they have the money and they have the guns and they have the gangs and the support network and it just strikes fear into the hearts of so many to to go against that.
And the power and the money and the guns come from guns I mean excuse me from drugs and the and the trade that inflates the prices seventeen thousand percent. Your thoughts.
Bill Kleiber: Well first of all we know this. This is not rocket science stuff and that is why the Restorative Justice Ministries and the Texas Criminal Justice Coalition and people like this have moved.
This last session we passed a legislation where possession of less than an ounce is now a misdemeanor now of marijuana. See? And that is going to change things a lot. When I first started going to the bus station seven years and meeting people, I met guys in there that were doing twenty years for possession of one marijuana cigarette or thirty years for an ounce of marijuana. That’s the fears we had back in the sixties. And now we passed that legislation. That’s going to drastically reduce it.
There is harder drugs now, we need to do the same there. We need to bring that under the purview, tax it, control it whatever but we don’t need to be enabling these cartels. All of this stuff that is happening in Mexico is going to roll right in to the United States if we don’t do something to intercede.
Dean Becker: You bet it is. Friends, we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber. He is with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. A man who spent sometime behind bars and knows the problems that those being released encounter.
And Bill we talked about this on the phone the other day. You get out of jail and in every state immediately I think and for Texas forever you can’t exonerate your history of that crime so you are denied credit, you are denied housing, you’re denied education, you’re denied a job, you know maybe even a driver’s license or a professional license.
Let’s talk about the impact or the the the lure that’s always out there, the black market, the criminal mindset that’s always the only thing left for many of these folks. Your thoughts on that.
Bill Kleiber: Well I tell you when I first came aboard I started answering this one eight hundred number that was established seven years ago. And this old boy rolls out of prison, he went home. And we had met him when he got out of prison, told him hey if you need some help call this number. So he called.
He got home. His family, he had a wife and three kids. There was no food in the cupboard, the water was turned off, the electricity was turned off. He called me says you know can you help me. So I spent about two hours on the phone and while I was talking to him we got the water turned on. The church came over there and got his electricity turned on. They walked in while I am talking to him, provided, brought some groceries and whatnot and you could…
I could tell it then. I said look we got you straightened out here and I said man you are sounding so much better over the phone. He says yeah he says I was pretty angry when I got home. I said yeah I thought you were going to go down and rob the seven eleven. He says seven eleven? I rob banks.
Haven’t you ever heard of Willie Sutton? What Willie Sutton said? I said no. He says they ask Willie, they say Willie, why do you rob banks? He says that’s cause that is where the money is. And I listened and that’s that was really a turning point for me from not just advocating the right to vote but to say these people need some help here.
And for seven years I have met an average of one hundred forty-five men a day, that’s thirty-three thousand a year let out from Huntsville alone, just from Huntsville, from the penitentiary, not counting the state jails, the county jails.
And these people go back and I know from personal experience you can’t, I can’t go back to work for a major corporation. They won’t hire me with a felony conviction. You can’t get food stamps if you have a drug conviction. You can’t get into any decent housing. You you’re hands are just tied.
And then they live under the bridge not eat not and not life cheat kill or maim. And it’s just not going to happen. Especially I tell you who will do it. The single guys will do that but who won’t do it are the people with families. They are going to do whatever it takes to survive.
And it’s our responsibility as American citizens to provide for that. You don’t need to be… we have created this whole third class of lepers, we treat them like lepers. And it’s not just them but their families. And when you have communities like Houston with forty years of tough justice…
There’s a whole third class of families that are just couch surfing from one couch to a neighbors couch to a relatives couch. I have met them. There’s twelve year old kids that aren’t even in school. And then we have created this whole seventy percent of the youth are going to if we have been locked up seventy percent of our kids are going to follow us right to prison. It’s ridiculous.
Dean Becker: It’s it’s more than a million kids. I wait more than two million kids have one or more parents behind bars. It’s outrageous and we expect them to thrive and to prosper none the less. Our compassion is lacking substance I would say.
Bill Kleiber: Well somewhere we have got to start accepting responsibility because there is a holocaust going. This is no different. And people I hang out with a lot of Christians and they say, you’re being too harsh Bill. But it’s my belief that this is no no it’s just like the holocaust over there in Germany that they let Hitler get away.
We are allowing our government to do things in our name and it’s not being put out on the news. That’s why I’m I’m here tonight talking with you to speak the truth. We let these fear mongers go out and broadcast the police blotter and put fear in people’s hearts. But they don’t talk about the solution. What I like about is the solutions. There are solutions to this and I know because I have witnessed it personally and I am part of it.
Dean Becker: Right.
Bill Kleiber: And there are people that help me and I am willing to help other people.
Dean Becker: Well and and um in my own way that is what I am doing with this show as well. I want to make it where the well the current generation and the next generation doesn’t face the likelihood of losing their their house, their car, their cash, their children, their worldly goods and their licenses and years if not decades of their life for having plant products in their pocket. It makes absolutely no sense.
Friends we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber with Restorative Justice Ministry of North America. We are going to take a thirty second break here and when we come back I hope you’re out there listening.
You’ll give us a call. Anywhere in North America it is toll free to call 1 877 9 420 420. Locally you can call 713 526 5738. Let’s talk about Restorative Justice. Lets talk about what should be, what might be, what ought to be the future regarding drug policy. We’ll be right back.
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Criminals get so emboldened
Rip you off thinking your holding
Can’t tell the policemen what you know
Got no recourse to the law
Bad guys duct tape and beat you
They are just looking for that easy score
They will rob rape and kill you
Cause we have got no recourse to the law
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Dean Becker: Got no recourse to the law. We do have a couple of calls coming in. we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber of Restorative Justice Ministry of North America.
Bill I tell you what. Soon as Laura gets us handled here we’re going to jump on the phones here. Let you take a couple of questions from the listeners. I want to thank you for joining us and really for having the courage, the willingness to speak these truths.
Bill Kleiber: You can turn it up so you can hear.
Dean Becker: Uh Bill, are you with us?
Bill Kleiber: Yes sir.
Dean Becker: Don’t turn it up!
Bill Kleiber: Hahahaha.
Dean Becker: Alright, well let’s go to Tim on line one. You’re on the air sir.
Caller: Yeah, I actually just wanted to make a comment about what Mr. Kleiber was saying. I just got done reading that book, Three Cups of Tea by about the guy Mortensen who’s building houses in or building schools for children in Afghanistan and and Pakistan and that’s his way of fighting terror.
And I just wanted to point out that there’s a lot of parallels there. I think a lot of what we could do is education. And I think that would go a long way to breaking that cycle. I just wanted to put that out there and get maybe his comments on it.
Dean Becker: OK, thank you Tim. Bill, you have some thoughts on that?
Bill Kleiber: Well education is a very important facet to this. See the thing is we are not hearing the whole truth and most Americans don’t know about the ramifications of this tough justice. And that is why it is important for us to not just to talk about it on the radio but to talk about it among ourselves and more importantly is it’s not enough just to talk about it. We have got to step out and take part in it.
I have helped start community endeavors in Houston and Fort Worth and different places because we know that helping these guys getting out for every dollar we invest in reentry we save three dollars. And we need to start stop building prisons and start building roads and schools and hospitals and other things that contribute towards our welfare rather than just building these huge human warehouses where we take bad people and and and create worse people.
Dean Becker: Yes we do. I wanted to also put in my two cents on this and that is if we were to face the situation where another country lets say Afghanistan or Pakistan wanted to come to America and find our one thousand craziest people and kill them, well there might be a thousand in one, maybe the thousand and first being yours truly because there is no logic behind this. Uh who has been holding the longest? Let’s go to Will on line two. You are on the air.
Caller: Hey, I want to thank you for your show.
Dean Becker: Thank you.
Caller: And I just want to, you’re talking about the government doing things in our name and you’re right. And I want to ask you you and your guest your thoughts about men like Ron Paul, congressman Paul who publicly stands for the legalization of marijuana, not the decriminalization but the legalization of it and the constant ridicule that he receives for that on the media and from both parties. He is ridiculed endlessly that he wants everyone to smoke pot since he is for the legalization of marijuana.
Dean Becker: Alright Will. Your thoughts, Bill?
Bill Kleiber: Well, look. Ron Paul has been a long standing advocate for for balancing things. And unfortunate thing is when people aren’t feel like they are not being listened to they have to revert to radicalism. They have to step things up just like these terrorists and whatnot. When they are not being listened to they gotta they gotta notch up on that.
What we need to do is we need to listen to people like Ron Paul and other people and we need to seek a balance. Our criminal justice system has swung too far one way. The victims of crime and people involved in in corporate this four billion dollar business have accelerated the sentencing.
We created a fifty-nine new felonies this last session. And our pendulum is swung too far to the right. And we need to come back to a more centrist view of these things. The most important part is one we need to get better educated about the truth.
Dean Becker: Yes we do. Once again we are speaking with Mr. Bill Kleiber, Restorative Justice Ministry North America. I wanted to throw in my two cents here. I have had Ron Paul on the radio with us twice and we have talked extensively about the need to legalize drugs.
And again he wants to destroy the cartels. He wants to kill Osama’s cash cow, eliminate the reason for the violent gangs. And yet he is ridiculed for that by ignorant people or at least people who pretend to be ignorant on the subject and who refuse to come on this program to defend their stance. I’ll tell you that. Let’s go to Justin on line three. You’re on the air.
Caller: Yes I just had a comment about what you guys are talking about with the probation departments.
Dean Becker: Yes sir.
Caller: It’s very ridiculous. I was put on probation here out in Fort Bend County and what they put you through if you come out with a felony you are required to keep a job first of all which is very hard when you have a felony to acquire a job. Second of all it’s all the fees that they make you pay. You have to go in three times a week for drug testing, pay for that. All the classes you have to go to you have to pay for that. It’s a money well…
Bill Kleiber: There’s a time delay.
Dean Becker: OK we have got some kind of double talk and Bill, was that you? I don’t know we are trying to keep a conversation going here. Let’s see. OK Justin, I wanted to address that thought. I mean, you are absolutely right.
The fact is so many people think that drug treatment, that urine testing that somehow involving themselves into your life is going to make your life better. But when you are jumping through the hoops and making those appointments. And a lot of people don’t even have a car. Some people when they get out are denied a driver’s license for god’s sake, so it really complicates. It’s like they want that drug user to jump through every hoop and to prove himself worthy of life in this country.
And the fact of the matter is is that you know many times people the only reason they’re caught is because marijuana stinks. Which then which then gives the cops the quote right to search your car and then they might find marijuana or they might find a little bag of something else and suddenly you’re a bad person. It’s not because of your behavior, it’s not because of anything you have done. It’s simply because pot stinks. We’ve got just a couple of minutes left. I have got two other calls. Justin thank you for listening. Who is next up? John on line one. Your thoughts?
Caller: Yeah I just have a story to relate about you know trying to help the cops in the so called drug war. About three years ago here in Rosenburg I was staying at a hotel. And I called the cops and I rendezvous with them a little a couple of blocks away and tell them there’s some guys, a cocaine family dealing cocaine out of this hotel. And then the guy, the cop does nothing about it. He says they are probably gone by now anyway.
Then the next night I call them back again and say look I you know I think I am in danger these guys are you know thinking about putting a hit on me. Then they have me put in the Austin State Hospital for being so called delusional. And and so this cop in the drug war, he didn’t want to do nothing about it you know. So in the rest of my life now I will never ever help the cops in any way shape or fashion to convict or apprehend a drug suspect. I just want to make that comment.
Dean Becker: Will thank you for that and look, I I certainly understand, oh it was John, I’m sorry. John I certainly understand that and I want to say you know the fact of the matter is we we we spend all this time, money, and effort, manpower, et cetera trying to quote stop the flow of drugs and yet it never will.
And what we have to is realize that there’s a more common sense way to go about this. Tax, regulate and actually control these drugs. Who makes it, what’s in the bag, what’s the content, percentage and all that so that there will be fewer overdose deaths, zero diseases contracted and less access for our children but we.
It’s a pipe dream. It’s a hundred year old pipe dream of men who have long since died. It’s a rain dance and we just keep hoping that eventually it it’ll rain you know no drugs. I don’t know. We have got time for one more call. Would John thank you so much. Let’s go to Will. Please, make it quick sir. Hello, Will?
Caller: I got cut off and I want to thank you for your show again. If we are going to change these laws we have got to change the lawmakers. And you talk about education, educate the people as to what liberty can do for us.
Dean Becker: Right.
Caller: Like we have someone running for governor for the state of Texas right now [ ] who is a libertarian minded person and we need to get out of this party system. We have got to change the lawmakers before we can change the law. And I would like to hear your thoughts on that. Thanks a lot for your show. Good evening.
Dean Becker: Thank you Will. OK I am going to hand it to you first Bill. We are speaking with…
Bill Kleiber: Well look, this is the truth. We have the power. We have the vote. These corporations can lobby all they want and they have got this big money but the key to it is for us to become active, to get educated and to go out and vote.
And I don’t I don’t try to sway anybody to vote for anybody. I just want you to go get educated and go and vote. Get off our tails, turn off the TV, go talk to your representatives and tell them that we are tired of this tough justice. I don’t advocate soft justice, I advocate soft, smart justice.
Dean Becker: Right.
Bill Kleiber: There are a lot of things that we can do to make our system better and it’s up to us. This is our country. Get off your tails, get up and get involved with your community. I don’t care what it is.
Go down and volunteer at the church or the soup kitchen or whatever god puts on your heart. And and if you have questions or if you know somebody that needs some help, they can call us at 1 800 998 3004 or you look up Restorative Justice Ministry Network. And this is a nationwide movement. And we can do it. And it’s thanks to shows like this and thank you listeners for investing your time to listen and educate yourself because we can make the difference. We got we got in this bind and we can get out of it.
Dean Becker: You know I can’t remember exactly which part of the discussion, which show it was in but I referenced tonight that seventy-six percent of Americans are for medical marijuana. And in the same Zogby poll they asked the opinion, they asked those same participants, what’s your opinion, how many people agree with you. And some seventy percent, yeah seventy percent of the people thought most people disagreed with them. So actually their perception of other’s thoughts was you know one hundred and eighty degrees off.
I don’t know if I said that right but basically seventy-sic percent were in favor of medical marijuana but didn’t think seventy-five percent agreed with them. I don’t know. I still don’t feel comfortable with the way I am saying it. But the point of it is is that there’s more of us that agree, that understand this and that are willing to do something about it. Tens seconds real quick, the website again there Bill.
Bill Kleiber: www.rjmn.net or it’s just look up Restorative Justice Ministry Network. And the truth is a hundred percent of us probably agree that we need to make some changes and we can do it.
Dean Becker: Alright, thank you.
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He’s the king of the cowboys
Of the terrorist cartels and gangs
He’s the purveyor of madness
Yet the masses his praises do sing
He is our only salvation
The way and the light
Bow down before his logic
For only he knows what is right
He’s the drug czar
Wages an eternal war
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Dean Becker: Alright my friends, this is Dean Becker wrapping it up for you here on the Century of Lies show. I want to thank all the callers. I want to thank Bill Kleiber of Restorative Justice Ministry of North America.
And I think this is the year we are going to get it done. I really do. I think it’s that people ask one another their opinions on this and find out that the majority of us do agree and that it is time to make that change and that eventually our politicians will hear the truth of this matter.
And I remind you there is no truth, no justice, logic, no reason for this drug war to exist. Please visit our website, endprohibition.org.
Prohibido istac evilesco.
Please visit endprohibition.org
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For the Drug Truth Network this is Dean Becker, asking you to examine our policy of Drug Prohibition.
The Century of Lies.
This show produced at the Pacifica studios of KPFT, Houston