DEAN BECKER:
All right friends. Today we're with the district attorney of Harris county, Houston Mason's fourth largest city. Some say it's maybe the third. Now Chicago's losing ground to us, but we're with district's attorney Kim OG. Thank you for being with us.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
It's great to see you again.
DEAN BECKER:
It's been three years. COVID put a big hole in our discussion. Did it not?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
It did. It's been affected over half of the term that I've served to date it's about five and a half years, but kind of the pre COVID, the post COVID and the, you know active phase. It's really been hard for government to function. We have essential employees and they showed up during the entire thing. I'm happy to say. And we're fortunate to, to have had essential employees like that at the medical center and our hospitals and journalism. So thank you.
DEAN BECKER:
Well, you gotta do what needs done and you can't just let society fall into the abyss prohibition. We've got a new one, that's arrived abortions. They're trying to prohibit women from making their own decisions about their body. To me, this seems like another strong imposition into our basic human rights. What are your thoughts in that regard?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
I agree with your impressions. I marched in Washington just a few months ago when it was not yet known if the Supreme court would really overturn row mm-hmm . We now know they have, and it's going to follow the states and to local legislators and statewide officials to determine what rights women in those states, including Texas have. And of course, I'm for full equal rights. And I see this decision as very harmful to Texas women, prosecutors police should never be involved in the personal health decisions of women or men.
DEAN BECKER:
Well, and that's been my assumption or take on the drug war that if, unless people are creating harms to someone or even to themselves, government has no business deciding what they put into their bodies as well, but that's down the road. I think once your attorney general or something, perhaps we can get into that more assault weapons. Now, a lot of people are wanting to ban assault weapons. I personally think maybe they should be kept in a locker. People could go go to the shooting range and, and use them at their leisure, but that not every 18 year old should be able to buy one that much. I, I feel certain about your thought there, please.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
At a minimum, we need to prohibit their sale to and purchase by kids who are under 21. If they can't buy a beer or cigarette, they certainly shouldn't be able to buy an assault rifle. I believe that the ban on assault rifles deterred some who would mass murder and any type of deterrence where we've seen a proven impact I think is worth considering. So I hope our Congress will truly consider reinstating the ban on assault weapons.
DEAN BECKER:
It was doing at least some good to, to have that ban in place. It certainly
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Was well after the attempted assassination of president Reagan and the near fatal shooting of James Brady. America's common sense prevailed. And we had a government that almost immediately passed a ban on assault rifles. And as we got our prisons revolving doors under control police and prosecutors better funded the advance of science, we saw an amazing decline in crime, especially violent crime. It interests me because I've lived through it during my career. I've witnessed it worked in it and now have the opportunity to shape the direction of public safety. And yet here we are in the midst of another public safety crisis in America, in our urban areas. And so it's a, it's a lot of opportunity for me to work on
DEAN BECKER:
Shootings on July 4th shootings in supermarkets and shootings in school. What happened in Aldi? The, the tapes just came out of those 19 cops standing around looking at their phones, joking and waiting while 19 children died. I don't know what to say about that. Other than for a drug bust, they plan in advance. They kick in the door at three in the morning. They know they have the advantage and they, they, they do their job. But here they were just, to me, seemed cowardly and powerless. Your, your thought
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Protocol is one of the most important things for a agency, especially of essential first responders to have training is the only thing that's secondary to good protocol. Doesn't look like the protocol was followed here, and we are so impacted by the grief and the anger and the frustration of the surviving family members of all of those victims. In Houston. We are meeting later this month with all of the law enforcement chiefs, the sheriff school district police chiefs, to ensure that we at least understand one another's protocol and that we have an integrated plan for response that's preparedness until we get a grip on the flood of firearms, deadly we war weapons in, in this country and get some controls self-control on our population for using it through better mental healthcare. I think that it's incumbent on law enforcement leaders like myself to plan and prepare. That's what we're doing.
DEAN BECKER:
And I'm glad to hear that I, as a former cop, you know, in my youth, I was a cop I for the us government garden, nuclear weapons, mostly, but I swore to uphold the constitution and to protect and serve. And it just didn't seem like they were protecting or serving at all. Some positive notes. Your misdemeanor marijuana diversion program that you put that in play right after you took office, did you not?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
I did. I promised Houstonians that we would change the way drug enforcement was handled, especially when it came to marijuana. And on the 47th day of my administration in 2017, with agreement of all of the law enforcement chiefs in Harris county, we stopped arresting for marijuana. The only arrest now that you see for possession of marijuana are people in possession of commercial amounts, people who are trafficking. And we know this is interwoven with human smuggling, which complicates the situation. So we really don't see anyone arrested under the misdemeanor marijuana diversion program for simple possession of marijuana, unless it's a commercial amount. I'm so proud of that. We've gotten very little recognition. I'm glad that you've stayed on top of it. We have the most progressive program on marijuana in the state, other cities Sporta first offender program, the most difficult and impressive part of our program is that it applies to everybody regardless of criminal background.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Normally criminal background is important when it comes to violence and being a predictor of future violence. But when it comes to possessing drugs, regardless of your background, when it's weed legal, in many states, medically legal in a majority of states, it had to be equally applied. This offer of non-res, all people have to do is take a class. Yeah. So it's a, it's a good program. I can't legalize marijuana. I can't even decriminalize it. But by working with the cops, we came to an agreement. We have more important things to do. We have to stop violent crime,
DEAN BECKER:
More important things to do. You bet. Yeah. Yeah. now
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Common sense, Dean.
DEAN BECKER:
Well,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Something that is in short supply, it seems by the extremes on both political spectrums.
DEAN BECKER:
If only I hear you now we have now the, the feds legalized hemp and then Texas kind of legalized hemp. But now we've got gas stations and head shops selling all kinds of C and various types that THC. And to me, I mean, if it were regulated, but to me, this is just mom and pop putting forward a product and, and selling it Willy nilly. That's what it seems like to me. I don't think there's any standards in place for this. Not much in anyway.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
No. I think that the T a THC level distinction that the Texas legislature put on marijuana and hemp, when it's the very same plant, I can tell you it complicated the heck out of the testing process, it drove our labs to their knees and to the benefit of Texans arrested in other counties for marijuana, it couldn't often be tested by the labs because our legislature didn't fund the testing. So it was kind of a hypocritical stance to take here. It didn't change anything because police had already agreed. We're not arresting folks from marijuana. Now, I will say, there's a caveat to it. Don't carry a weapon and marijuana in a car. Mm-Hmm because the only crime now related to carrying a weapon, unless you're a felon or in a prohibited place, is if you're committing another crime at the same time. And so possession of marijuana is still a crime. Although we don't enforce it here in a punitive way, we didn't change the status. We changed how we handled it and I'd submit that's really worked
DEAN BECKER:
Well. I, from what I understand, yeah, the feedback out of the neighborhoods as as much, I, I would agree with you now. What is that smell? Is that still a tactic cops? Are you, is that marijuana? Let me search your car. Yep. Is that still going on?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
It is because the law hasn't changed with regard to marijuana and the odor of it being probable cause agree, disagree. That's what the courts have held. Now the importance of that to the average person watching this is that's going to give police the legal right to search your car, their judges in Harris county, who don't feel that way. I get it. But it's our understanding and position as an office. It's still probable cause. And so that's where we are. I'm letting people know because I don't want them to think that based on our program, they won't be arrested. They may not be arrested if it's just, they won't be arrested. If they're just in possession of marijuana, they likely will be arrested. If it's marijuana accompanied by a gun.
DEAN BECKER:
Now let's talk about guns for a moment. I'm I'm, you know, I own a few guns, but I don't carry 'em. I, I don't worry about 'em. But is it, is it now legal to carry a gun in my car or is I'm driving down the road? Do I need a permit? What's going on
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Historically in Texas, you could always carry a long rifle, but now you can carry a handgun. You can carry you can carry an automatic weapon and not automatic. Sure. You can carry an assault, weapon, everything, but an automatic. But what I really want to change are some of the conversion items that have become products now, not of the black market, but they're right out there for sale. The switch that can turn a Glock semiautomatic into an automatic, the giant canisters that you can use to utilize 50 rounds and one setting, as opposed to 13, let's say in a regular semiautomatic. So those high capacity magazines, some of the types of ammo that's used, that's just designed to do as much damage to the human body as possible. There are real simple changes that are not gonna change hunting or our right to possess a firearm.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
They are common sense limitations that responsible lawmakers must enact to help us in law enforcement fight violent crime. Our cops at times are outgunned. And I can tell you in this system, we're, outmanned HPD has 5,000 plus officers. So does the Sheriff's department. I have 350 lawyers Dean in Manhattan, Chicago, LA. They have two to three times that many prosecutors. And so this lack of accountability and the inability to try a lot of cases at once has created a backlog of violent criminal, some of whom, route on bail. And, and you get repeat violence. Mm-Hmm, , it's predictable. Mm-Hmm . So we've got really important problems to solve other than dealing with people in possession of marijuana.
DEAN BECKER:
I I've been talking to my lawyer lately about smoking some hemp out in front of the courthouse. What do you think would happen?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Well, I'm afraid you'd be arrested, but I'm not sure. I don't know that it would be for possession. It might be for disorderly conduct, that kind of thing. I, I don't think that, that people are in the legal system are quite ready for that, but you know, it's not ethical for me to give you advice. I'm the people's lawyer. I can't be one person's lawyer. I know. So listen to your lawyer.
DEAN BECKER:
Well, okay. I alright. I'm thinking about it. Okay.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
You were thinking about it three years ago. Last time we talked,
DEAN BECKER:
I know
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
You tickled me deep because you're a committed, purposeful journalist and activist, and our democracy needs it. I, I like you and I like your work and I always appreciate being on your show.
DEAN BECKER:
Well, I have shared with Brian, I shared with you it's been six weeks ago. I contacted Raj at one of the editors at the Chronicle and said, you know, I think I deserve an op-ed. He says, Dean you're right. I've been listening to you for 20 years. And I'm still working on it. It's gonna be a masterpiece, but, but the point I guess, I'm getting at is that,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Well, please mention our program and the benefits before we had a misdemeanor marijuana program before I was da 10,000 people a year were getting arrested for marijuana. I've got the evidence, I presented it to the public. And in part, that's what they voted me in on. Yeah. I made good on the problems to stop that. Now we have other problems, but it's important to know that, you know, Houston public safety didn't see an impact when people stopped being arrested for marijuana. People have only seen an impact through changes in other policies that put more dangerous people on the street.
DEAN BECKER:
True enough. And ed, as I recall, the day of your announcement, it's a big conference with all the police you came down and you told me, I hope you remember this, that I was the pioneer who made this possible.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
I think that's true. I think that people of you're just, just a slightly ahead, your generation than mine. And I think you plowed a lot of ground and we're appreciative the, the relevance is that government shouldn't be in everybody's life on every issue. That's why you'll see a consistent thread in my approach that I don't like folks who hurt other people going without accountability. It's dangerous. And it's unfair. The, the individual rights we have, have to be guarded. Mm-Hmm , it's in my mission statement, you know, we, we seek a just outcome for the victim, the accused and the community, and this stuff has to make sense to taxpayers agreed,
DEAN BECKER:
Oh, it has to. Or why are we doing this?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Exactly. So we have problems. We need every resource we can to fix 'em government needs to get on the stick and do what's important. And it's not it's not a mish mass of laws in the United States related to marijuana that are, are unequal and disparate. It really, really screws people up and they lose faith in government. So yeah. I support your, your position on
DEAN BECKER:
Marijuana. Well, thank you. Now, wait, you mentioned it earlier on minor amounts of drugs and past with past district attorneys microscopic amounts in the corner of a little baggy could get you arrested IED it. Yes. And, and now we have Suboxone and all these other medications, people are being treated to walk them away from their prior addictions to, to O other opiates and such. And, and you've been a strong supporter of those efforts. Have you
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Not? Yeah. I'm not a huge supporter of our pharmaceutical industry's efforts to direct people to painkillers, because you can see that much of our nation became addicted to certain types of synthetic drugs. So I'm, I'm not a, a fan of that. I also think that the, the lack of regulation, as you've mentioned, when it came to that, we, we thought they were being regulated. We thought that if a doctor prescribed a pain killer, that it was okay, we could see the damage it did, and look at what fentanyl has done. And what I do wanna mention is that we do see an increased connection between the manufacturer and and transportation and, and sale of fentanyl along with human trafficking. So you're seeing people and that deadly drug transported by the same cartels and same organized crime groups in Houston's a major stopping point distribution center, air, traffic control for sending out to the rest of the country. We've gotta get on top of that. Fentanyl's killing the hell out of Houstonians, out of Texans and out of Americans.
DEAN BECKER:
Thank you for that now. I'm a, not a big fan of the DEA. I, I think you can appreciate that from my stance. And they have come out recently saying we're gonna curtail the death rate from fentanyl by 13% now was 107,000 dead this past year. That means they're, they're gonna be happy with 93,000 dead this year. That means in 11 years, there's another million dead Americans because they want to quote control these substances, which is the biggest oxymoron that's ever been on this planet. They have never controlled anything, not even for a child in, in junior high. And I, I guess, I don't know, that's mostly just a gripe, but they are the ones who refuse to debate me. They are the ones who refuse to answer my, my call for what is the benefit? What do we derive from this and that they, they have absolutely failed to do so, again, I'm preaching, I'm sorry.
DEAN BECKER:
The drunks, there's a lot of drunks out there doing stupid things. I happen to have a relative who is, excuse me, C O P D. I happen to have a relative who's kind of ox alternates between drinking and crack cocaine. That's, I've tried to preach to him. He lived with me three times, did fine, but he had to leave. He always had to leave and get back to his habits. And he's been busted three times for spitting on a cop because he's in an encounter with a cop he's so drunk and SL, and he's been arrested three times. And I, I think I, I don't know that law just needs to be reassessed.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
See, I think that negative interaction between alcohol and synergistic effect, it has with drugs, both legal and illegal. Then when you add the law enforcement intersection, and you just get a perfect storm for problems, we really believe in treatment for drug addiction. I think it was best handled by the healthcare system, not by the criminal justice system. I'm working right now with the director of probation and with some other groups to talk about directing all of our drug cases, which need to be reduced in this county. So we can work on violent crime, but handling all of them through a treatment plan and as little court supervision as necessary once again, to direct more of our court's resources to violent criminals. That's what people care about. Dean. They wanna be safe in their grocery store and in their house. Yeah. Not whether you're smoking a joint or whether somebody's got LSD in their pocket. I I'm not for LSD or hard drugs. And I think the legalization would have to include a ton of regulation
DEAN BECKER:
Education,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
But I will tell you that I don't see, that's not the issue. I see lots of kids taking lots of pills. That aren't what the pills says. It is. May say it's Adderall may say it's another type of drug and it's not, they almost all are meth and fentanyl and it takes one extra tiny amount to kill you. Yeah.
DEAN BECKER:
Oh,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
It's just tragic.
DEAN BECKER:
Just a bad mix. They, the one,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Yeah, stop buying off the street. People please don't buy off the street.
DEAN BECKER:
Now I, I come to, what's been bugging me for well, since it happened, the Harding street bust. Now I submit that there have been tens of thousands of very similar bus that went on into this city over the decades. I, I can certainly point to something that happened to me back in the late sixties and early seventies, where cops would kick you in the door at five in the morning, drunk as skunks with no warrant, just mad and looking for drugs. And I, I guess what I'm saying, it wasn't just that one division 13, whatever it was that it's been prevalent, it's been part of what narcotics officers do to increase their numbers, to get a, a pay raise to to, to move up through the, the rank so to speak. And I, I, I don't know. I, I, I wonder what is your response to that?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Well, I have a important response. Stay tuned, Harding street signifies an important, not just realization, but the opportunity to pull the curtain back on drug enforcement that is not done appropriately. And that again has to do with policies and training, but that's the civil side. I'm interested in two people in their dog who were killed and the squad 15 of HPD, most of whom members who were indicted have retired. Mm-Hmm I look forward to presenting the evidence in their organized crime cases where different government documents from offense reports to affidavits for search warrants contained false information based on their representation that they'd seen something that they couldn't have possibly seen because they weren't there. Yeah. And then dad insult to injury, got paid overtime for it, which starts to look like a pattern as you roll into Harding street and say, see all the earmarks of this crime criminal sort of not just episode, but group of episodes just shows a pattern in the drug enforcement practices of that squad.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
I don't have the luxury of labeling entire groups is guilty for something. I can only go based on the evidence and make allegations against individuals. But I believe that the public's going to be shocked. I think we're gonna get justice. And I have confidence in my prosecutors. Those cases move forward in October. And I invite the public to watch those trials. I'm concerned about rulings by the court on evidence. I'm concerned about what the defense has labeled as a political prosecution. That's absurd, right? This is police corruption. It resulted in deaths of people based on completely phony warrant, signed by an actual judge who's lied to, and we see a pattern of that behavior and we see that our taxpayers paid for it. So I look forward to that case and it's gonna be an important case. I think, as we move forward, let me say one thing, Dean, almost all the cops I've ever known in my life.
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Thousands of cops are honest cops, right? We don't prosecute them because they're doing their best. Yep. We're all human. They can make mistakes. Harding street was no mistake. It was an inevitable result of a pattern in practicing. So I I think that we'll see good changes in Harris county's law enforcement policies when it comes to drug prosecution and enforcement Dean, as a result of, of the deaths of Regina, Nicholas and, and Dennis Tule. And I say that because I don't want them to have died for nothing. I wish they weren't dead. Well, I plug in it's a tragedy, but we're gonna make we're, we're going to make sure that they get justice in every, in we're gonna give it our best shot. Let me say that.
DEAN BECKER:
Thank you for that. Yeah, I'm, I'm glad you're willing to speak. You know, it's been, as we were talking about just over three years, I chief Vedo wouldn't talk to me after the Harding street bust, he's gone now NORRA willing chief fin. He hasn't ever responded to me. Sheriff Gonzalez has been on my radio show in four years. And you know, for 15 years going back to Chuck Rosenthal, the DAS have all been on my show. Thanks to you and, and your predecessors. And I'm wondering, is it the patrolman's union? That's controlling these, these police leaders, are they now the fourth branch of government because they seem to have a lot of power. What is your thought
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
That I don't speak for, or about other public officials who are elected by the public? Now, chief Finn's appointed. Let me say this about him as a man. I've known him for 27 years professionally. We started in I was a just out of the DA's office, working for the mayor on gangs. Mm-Hmm trying to stop what was happening in Gulfton. Troy was a young officer, community service storefront officer. I trust him. I believe he's capable of the job. And I, I, I hope that you do get a chance to talk to him. He's got his hands full. But I don't think these folks while they answered other people, he certainly answers to the mayor. Troy stands on his own own feet.
DEAN BECKER:
Sure. No sheriff Garcia, Bradford, McLean. They all have been on my show. We're getting near the end here. I wanna say this, my neighborhood, it's a neighborhood now kind of lower middle or middle class. I don't know it, it was stocked with auditors and accountants from TECO and shell and all this that moved down here 50 years ago. And I, I, one of my neighbors just got busted. He had three kilos. They, I don't know of how much of which, but he had meth and heroin and cocaine. He had a couple of assault rifles. He had several warrants. He had stolen motorcycles. This happened about seven, eight weeks ago now. They, they were there all day. I don't know what they were doing. I didn't even want to get out there. I just figured I got long hair. They'll come bust me. Who knows? But the, the, the thought I, I, you know, carried from that was okay. They're cleaned out the neighborhood, but apparently they got out of jail, moved back in the house. And Monday of this week, they came and busted them again. And I'm wanting to know, is that happening all across town are, are all the white boys selling stuff out out of their front door, because that's what these idiots were doing. Your response, please,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
You know, drug dealing like all entrepreneurship is just the black market instead of our world market. And the imagination is limitless. So of course they're in the suburbs. Of course, they're in our urban areas. Of course, they're in our rural areas. People will find a way to make this happen for profit. It's part of why your work I think is important. Regulation is I think an answer and I really hope legislators consider that angle as they go to work on our drug laws in the future. You know, I've supported this at the legislature, mm-hmm and I think it's important that leadership takes a stand. So I encourage other elected officials to talk to you. And with you, Dean, it's always good to talk to your audience. Let 'em know. In Houston, we have a very reasonable approach to marijuana. It applies to anybody regardless of their position in life, or even with criminal justice history, because we don't want disparate treatment of one race over another. And we've seen a lot of that in drug enforcement. I'm out to end it. We wanna stop the deadly flow of drugs and we definitely wanna stop the trafficking of human beings. And so I'm against organized crime. That's why I was the city's first anti gang director still against it. I think there's better ways of handling this area of criminal justice. Leave us to rape murder and robbery. The things we all agree are wrong. Yeah,
DEAN BECKER:
No I I'm with you there. The ones again, friends, we're speaking with Kim obviously's with the district's attorney of Houston Harris county. Nation's fourth largest city. Now I'm gonna close with this question. And I asked this of back then Chuck Rosenthal, I think it was about 2007, 2008. And I asked him this was right before he quit citing his own drug abuse, but I asked him, sir, have we made a difference in the drug war over the last five years? Your response please?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
No, we've the drug war has made a, a bad difference. Unfortunately, I think it's had a negative effect on, especially our black and brown communities, feelings about law enforcement. They want protection from violence. They want to be safe in their houses. And I don't think they want their neighborhoods to be labeled as high crime because we continue to bust make drug bus in those areas. There's gotta be a better way, a more common sense way that gives everybody an opportunity economically without having turned to dealing drugs. So I think it's been a, a bad thing. I do support the DEA and other law enforcement, all law enforcement, because I'm the top law enforcement official. And I believe that working with them is the answer that they can be a great service and benefit. We've got a new DEA commander here that I'm working with. And so Dean, I want you to know we're doing our best to keep everybody safe. I don't think the focus is on the individual user here in Houston. That's the impression I get from other leaders about drug enforcement. That's good news. That's a good, common sense approach to dealing with what the rest of the taxpayers want us to do violent crime.
DEAN BECKER:
Okay. And the, the second question I asked him Chuck Rosenthal was, do you think we'll make a difference in the next five years?
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
And my answer again is no, that's why I want a different way and we're working on it.
DEAN BECKER:
Fair enough. Well, Kim, I thank you so much,
KIM OGG DISTRICT ATTORNEY :
Dean. Always my pleasure.