Reverend Becker: (00:00)
Hi, folks. This is Dean Becker. Reverend Most High, you're tuned into the Drug Truth Network. We've got another show this time focused on anti-fascist views quite a bit, and a whole lot on drug war as well. We have with our guest, an old friend of the show. It's been a while since we had him on. I'm glad to have him back. He's a barrister and a solicitor up there in, uh, Ottawa, Canada. And with that, I wanna welcome Mr. Eugene Acapella. Hey, Eugene. 

Eugene Oscapella: (00:28)
Well, thank you, Dean. It's a delightful and delight for me to be here. 

Reverend Becker: (00:31)
Well, and it, it's, um, it's good to get back with an old friend. I'll say that for sure. Yeah. 

Eugene Oscapella: (00:36)
And we, we've worked, uh, we've worked on a lot of issues together over the years, drug policy issues, certainly. 

Reverend Becker: (00:41)
And I, I wanna get into drug policy here real soon and learn more about what you're up to these days. But I, I wanna talk about, I, I just, uh, ran in here. I was looking at a video of, uh, president Zelensky was in the White House. Yes. He's sitting there with Donald Trump and, um, VP Vance, and they were both berating him for not being thankful enough. They, they were, they were trying to stuff it down his throat, so to speak. Have you, by chance seen that video? 

Eugene Oscapella: (01:10)
I, I didn't see the video. I saw the news report about it, uh, uh, and they accused him of being disrespectful. Um, you know, this is a, it's a pretty appalling situation. Uh, um, this is a country that has suffered enormously, enormously under the Russian aggression. And, and, and somehow, uh, the president has been trying to, uh, cast it as, as Ukraine's fault, which is, is beggars, you know, common sense, 

Reverend Becker: (01:39)
Everything. It beggars everything. And it was within the past week, uh, we're recording this just a couple of days before this show, first gets broadcast. But, uh, during the past week or two weeks, uh, Trump has, uh, several times indicated he thought that Zelensky was the dictator, that he was the one who started this war, et cetera, et cetera, along that line. And it, um, it, it just underscores how reality in these United States in particular is being distorted, is being morphed, is being 1980 Ford, if you get my drift there. It, it has, it's a horrid thing that's happening. Your response to that, sir, 

Eugene Oscapella: (02:20)
It's, it's this information. This is, um, I just finished working on an inquiry here in Canada, uh, looking at, at foreign interference. And, uh, when the, the Commissioner of the Inquiry, um, issued her final report, she said that the thing we have to worry about is, is disinformation that's deliberately misinforming people. Um, and we have seen it. Uh, you and I have worked in the drug policy field for decades, and we've seen plenty of disinformation relating to drugs and drug policy over the years. Uh, and this, this may be that same sort of technique, you know, disinformation to, to mislead the public. Um, because unfortunately, the public, um, in, and it's not just in the United States in many countries, it does not have the, um, the sometimes the incentives to go ahead and question what it's been told by figures of authority. And, and sometimes it doesn't have the time. 

Eugene Oscapella: (03:12)
Most people don't have the time to go ahead and, and do the research to, uh, when somebody states something and as a fact. So they don't have the time to research it and challenge it. It takes a lot more energy to challenge, uh, disinformation than it does to make the statement. You can, you can easily go ahead and make an erroneous statement that takes two seconds, but to actually prove the statement to be wrong and do credible research to prove it wrong, takes a lot of time. People don't have that time, and some people don't want to use the time they're willing to accept information. That's the, the, the dilemma that we saw with drug policy, and it's probably the dilemma we're seeing now. 

Reverend Becker: (03:49)
Well, thank you for that. Now, Eugene, I, I think about the, the, the situation with, um, it's like the whole of the Republican party over here. It's like a mind, uh, virus or something has taken over the, the, uh, the mindset of, well, let's say half the population, because the MAGA crowd wears them red hats and cheers for anything that Donald Trump says. And it, it just seems like there's, there's something mentally wrong here too. Would you address that? I mean, 

Eugene Oscapella: (04:24)
Uh, well, it's, I'm, I'm not an expert in, in, in, uh, in sort of political science issues. But I mean, as, as a Canadian, uh, I look at what is happening in the United States, and, and I worry because it, it, it, we and Canadians are, are much more attuned to, um, uh, American politics than, than Americans would be of Canadian politics, because the United States is a, is a, is a predominant force in the world, and it's our largest neighbor. So we, we pay, Canadians pay a lot of attention to American politics because of the, the profound impact it can have on, on Canadians and, and, uh, you know, we, we wonder where the opposition is right now and where the, to to, to some of the measures that are being taken. Uh, and because in a democracy, you want, you want people who question the use of power. Um, and, uh, it, it's, it's something that, I mean, we don't always see it in our own country, our own country. Canada is far from a perfect, uh, democracy. But, uh, but I, I'm, I'm watching, uh, as a Canadian watching what's happening in the United States and wondering, wondering where the opposition is to, uh, to some of the measures that are being taken, some of the extreme measures. 

Reverend Becker: (05:35)
Well, now, as you're well aware, the, the show you're on is, is one such show. There are many others out on the cable area and not necessarily broadcast that are, uh, standing very tall right now. I'm very proud of the work they are doing. Um, you know, the, the, the stations that this program gets broadcast on, they're independent, uh, mostly, yeah. Uh, some are college, uh, sponsored, but, um, um, it's listener sponsored in many cases, like my home station of, uh, KPFT here in Houston. And we we're not gonna back down. We're not going away. We're not going to let these monsters take over this nation, which is what they're trying to do. I honestly feel like my best interpretation of what they're doing actually is they're going to starve us to death. They're gonna let inflation eat up our savings. They're going to buy up all the farm land, bring down the price of the houses so they can sell it later, uh, at a profit. Um, it's all designed to screw the nation. That is what this is really all about from my perspective. There's nothing logical or hopeful or, uh, useful to it. Uh, it's just a means to destroy this nation. And I feel at the, uh, behest of one of Vladimir Putin, because I, I think Trump loves the man, uh, um, can find no fault with him. And will you talk about that situation? Please, sir? 

Eugene Oscapella: (07:07)
Well, I can't, I mean, a lot of the things you're saying are, are domestic QS policies, and it's hard for me to comment on that. But, but, you know, certainly we're worried about, we're worried about any sort of autocratic, authoritarian, uh, leadership in the world. And, and Putin has been the, the, you know, predominant force on that. And, and of course, obviously there are concerns about the, the, the growing, um, uh, might of China. It's, it's, it's something that should worry us all. I mean, we're, the, the, the challenge we have is, is the, the lack of opposition, um, the lack of democratic opposition. Um, you know, you may remember in the, in the, um, you know, many, many years ago, J Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI was, was notorious for keeping files on, on, uh, on, uh, members of Congress. And, uh, and if they were opposing some aspect of FBI operations, uh, uh, he would call 'em in and, and, and, and, uh, basically, uh, blackmail 'em. And I, I don't know, I don't know what is stopping people from speaking out in, in a normal democratic fashion, against some of the, some of the things they disagree with in, in the country right now. That is, that is something that, that I'm sure many Canadians are puzzling about. 

Reverend Becker: (08:21)
Right. And, and again, I, I don't mean to box you in, I've never, that's never been my goal on this program ever, is to force people to believe what I believe. But, uh, yeah, I, uh, I, I, sometimes I feel I just got to express what I believe, and yeah. And, and, and, and the main thing, uh, is that, um, I feel there's too much laissez-faire. There's too much rope of dope. There's too much, uh, taking of the abuse that these, these republicans are dishing out. They, they wanna act like Nazis. They're acting like Nazis. They need to be treated like Nazis. That's just the way I see it, because that's not America. That's not how things are supposed to work here with, uh, a bludgeon rather than, uh, you know, uh, a, a helping hand. Yeah. And, and, and it seems that's where we're at. 

Reverend Becker: (09:10)
And, um, I, I, I guess I'm just pitching to my audience, you know, think about what you can do, who you can visit, who you can call, who you can email, what meetings you can go to, because these guys are serious. They're doing this, it took Hitler 53 days to destroy the Constitution of Germany. And today, I think we're up somewhere around day 40 right here in the United States for, uh, Trump and his ss, um, to do their work. Um, it's just too scary for me. Now, I, I want to mention to the audience, you can't see it. I, I may put some of this out on the web, but I just put up a new background here on my Zoom, uh, um, setup, if you will. And it's, it's had many things, you know, drug cartels and, I don't know, moral, high ground, et cetera, all kinds of things. 

Reverend Becker: (10:05)
But right now, it's got an upside down American flag, because that's how I feel. We are in great peril. And, uh, I, I grew up at a time when the World War II veterans were still fresh from the battle coming back with the PTSD, though they didn't even call it that back then. And the stories they would tell of dropping bombs on, uh, islands in the Pacific or, uh, storming, um, the gates of Paris to return it to, you know, the, the allies control. And, and those stories stuck with me. And I, I know that was a serious war. And them Germans were touched in the head, uh, and the whole population became touched in the head. And that's what I think is happening here, is that we're just going along to get along. Because to object, you may lose your job, you may lose your income, your healthcare, you're standing in the community. Uh, it's, it's being a bad Nazi. And, um, I I, I get to preaching here, Eugene, just forgive me, man. I, I just, this is a chance to share my thoughts because, um, my audience knows, uh, I am a committed person, maybe need to be committed, um, that I commit to something and I don't back down. And Eugene, if the time comes and I, I mess up too much here, you know, some friends help me get across the border because I have a, 

Eugene Oscapella: (11:30)
Well, well, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, uh, certainly there are, I'm sure there are some Americans who, who want to, to leave the United States now. I mean, that's, uh, there's no doubt about that. And then that's been a case in, uh, over, over many years. There are many Canadians living in the United States right now who I'm sure are, are reconsidering their, um, their continued residence in the United States, should they return to Canada. And, and, uh, because of the, the, the, the, the sort of social upheaval that's being caused, uh, right now with the, uh, the new government. So people are, you know, it's, it's, this is a disruptive time, um, for Canadians too. And, and I mean, and in, in our, in our joint field, and as I say, I'm not a political scientist, but when I, when I look at our, our joint work on drug policy, I look at some of the stuff, the, some of the accusations that have been made, uh, uh, about Canada and how it's harming Canada, US relations, where the United States has claimed that Canada is a, a major supplier of fentanyl to the United States, uh, um, which is just factually totally incorrect. 

Eugene Oscapella: (12:33)
I mean, this is the, I think, uh, the, the, uh, these are US figures that the, the total amount of fentanyl that came from Canada into the United States was, was about 40 pounds, uh, last year. And the, the equivalent from the Mexican side was about 22,000 pounds. You know, so we are a tiny, tiny, tinier supplier of fentanyl, and that doesn't even take into account the drugs that crossed from the United States into Canada. Um, that's the sort of disinformation that I'm worried about. That's part of this, this, this new government. And, and, um, and many, your, many of your American, uh, listeners and, and viewers may not be aware that, that, uh, this was the justification used by the president to, to say that he was going to impose 25% tariffs on all Canadian goods was because of the supposed rush of fentanyl across the, uh, from Canada into the United States, which is a, a again, going to this whole issue of disinformation, classic example of disinformation. 

Eugene Oscapella: (13:31)
And we have seen it often enough in the war on drugs, uh, that disinformation is, uh, you know, we've, we, we've, how many, how many decades have we heard people say that look the way to solve the war on drug, the way to solve the drug problem is to put more people in prison. We know that doesn't work. We know that doesn't work. But that's been the mantra for decades. That is the sort of disinformation that we've run up against. So this, this is, this is quite troubling. Um, now the, the, the threats against Canada, um, as part of this war on drugs, um, they're essentially, Canada's major trading partner is the United States, uh, 25% tariff on all Canadian goods coming into the United States, which is what the president has been threatening to impose, uh, for, uh, since he came into power, um, would cripple the Canadian economy. 

Eugene Oscapella: (14:19)
And we are one of the closest allies. I I, um, uh, you know, I, I, and again, I'm, I'm pitching again for Canada, a bit for Canada here, against some of the measures of this government. Uh, some of the, the, the sort of very seemingly arbitrary measures of the government, um, that we have a 5,000 mile long shared border, and it's one of the most peaceful borders in the world. And Canada's being accused of being a major supplier of drugs, which we are not, uh, we are being threatened, uh, with annexation, which is a complete violation of international law. And, and, uh, it's, it's an, it's, it's frightening because the United States is still probably the most powerful nation on earth. And, and, uh, uh, you know, we're, we're very much afraid of the arbitrary, uh, misuse of power for, against an ally. I mean, I, I don't think I was looking back to see, you know, the, the, the, the good relations we've had between our two countries. 

Eugene Oscapella: (15:16)
Um, and you remember the horrible events of, of September 11th, uh, 2001, the United States shut down its airspace after the attacks in the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, and the, the, um, and the, the, the plane that crashed and, uh, was driven into the ground in, I believe in Pennsylvania. Um, 220 flights were headed to North America. Um, there were 500 flights headed to North America at the time. Uh, half of 'em were able to turn back and, and land in Europe. Uh, the United States closed its airspace to airlines that included American airlines bringing American citizens back because they were worried about the threat of terrorism, who, who let those aircraft land. It was Canada who let aircraft land in Canada and took care of tens of thousands of Americans, our, our friends, our American friends, uh, when the United States had shut the airspace to them coming back into the country. You know, we have a long history of friendship, and it's, it's very, very difficult right now to see this sort of, uh, threatening behavior by the United States for, for Canadians. Um, it's quite, it's, it's quite troubling. 

Reverend Becker: (16:28)
Yeah. No, no, we're good. You're underscoring my feelings a bit there, . I thank you for that. Yeah, it's, it's, um, it's, it's just creepy. It just is that, um, we, we have so many people that will get gungho behind a man who, well, just last night was talking again about the tariffs that he was kind of put in play and then canceled and put in play. And, you know, it's like a yo-yo to him. He, he used, 

Eugene Oscapella: (16:52)
Well, you, you can't operate. How do you, how do you regulate your economy when, when you don't know what the rules are? And that's the face. This is what's happening with many countries. Of course, they don't know what the rules are going to be. Now, is Canada gonna hit by tariffs? Is Europe gonna going to be hit by tariffs one week? Yes. One week. No, it's, it's very, very difficult to manage an economy in these circumstances. And it's totally unwarranted, totally unfair, um, and totally arbitrary. 

Reverend Becker: (17:19)
Well, and again, this kind of underscores my theory that he wants to just mess it all up. I have to be careful the words I use sometimes, but he just wants it to go to hell in a hand basket so that Putin can be happy, and, and eventually they can take over, because it's just, it's so crazy. And, and he, I think, I think the man is absolutely crazy. It's 

Eugene Oscapella: (17:45)
Hard. I mean, we, we worry about what's happening. I can't, I don't know what, what's going on in the president's mind or in the, in the minds of the people, uh, around him. But it's, it's, it's very worrying because it, it, it creates a lot of instability for other, for other countries, for allies. And, and unfortunately, it's, it's going to harm, um, uh, as we see it, Americans traveling abroad, for example, um, it's gonna be tough because individual Americans are gonna be blamed for, for some of the actions of, uh, of their government. Um, uh, and, and, um, and that's unfortunate. 

Reverend Becker: (18:20)
I, I've got a hat that was given to be by Mark Emory, which has I think, a Canadian hockey team on the front of it. And if I go to Europe or South America or anywhere, but the us I'm gonna wear that hat because I don't wanna be mistaken for an American. I am truly embarrassed by what we're doing. We're about to take away the sustenance, the, the medical care, the, the, the shelter from millions of people. So that trillionaire, or excuse me, billionaires can get a few trillion more to put in their pocket. They can buy a bigger yacht and outdo one another or something. How the hell do they need more money? Where did this logic come from, your thought there, sir? 

Eugene Oscapella: (19:02)
Well, well, you, you need one bed to sleep in. You need one car to drive. Uh, and the, the, the, the apparent reach for massive levels of additional wealth, I mean, it, the, it, it boggles the mind. Um, uh, I, I don't understand this. I don't understand this. Uh, but we see it. I mean, maybe it's just the human nature to be greedy sometimes. Uh, but, and, and that's what we're seeing. But yes, our social programs going to deteriorate when, and, and again, what, what impact will it have on other countries? You know, if the United States Fed, you know, uh, walks down a certain path, what impact is that going to have on countries around the world that, that have perhaps stronger, um, social we welfare systems? And I'm not talking, and I, and I know that, uh, the, the, the word social sometimes it doesn't, doesn't, uh, broadcast well in the United States. 

Eugene Oscapella: (19:55)
'cause it's, it's, it's, uh, allied with socialism. That's not what this is about. This is about taking care of people who need, need help. It's about giving people a, a chance in life and, and giving them appropriate medical care and healthcare and, and social support services where they need it. And that's what that many of us see is what is necessary for a healthy society. And, and, um, you know, I'm, I worry in, in Canada, for example, that we are, uh, losing some of those social welfare protection, some of the guardrails that really protect, uh, people in difficult circumstances. And, and it's, it seems to be a trend in many countries, of course, that we're seeing, um, you know, democratic countries around the world. 

Reverend Becker: (20:36)
I, I don't know how things, you know, pan out in, in Canada, uh, here in the US following, uh, the covid years. Uh, buildings were shut down. Uh, appointments were made necessary, uh, to even get in a building, let alone go to an office or, or get the time to visit, uh, drop-ins were no longer allowed, if you will. Um, uh, that combined with, you know, the fears of nine 11, and I don't know, drug war, and I don't know, uh, Trump in particular, these immigrants are here. They're, uh, from insane asylums and all of this, all of this fears generated, has empowered cops and prosecutors and even politicians to get a little tougher, to look, uh, a little more ance at certain situations, allow, uh, certain abuses to develop. Um, are, are you experiencing that in Canada as well? Is it getting Go ahead. 

Eugene Oscapella: (21:42)
There's a, there, there's no doubt. I, I used to work on, on Parliament Hill the same as Canadian equivalent of, of the Capitol. Um, and, but back then, you could walk, you could walk up to the our, to the House of Comm as the equivalent of the House of Representative. You could walk up there and stand outside with no security. I mean, I remember in, in the late 1970s as there was a, the government was defeated and, and the press were all outside the, the House of Commons. And, and I walked up there with a friend. We just walked right into the Parliament buildings, no, uh, no passes. We were just ordinary citizens walking in there. And that's unthinkable today, even in Canada as well. I mean, you need a pass to go in. You need security to get into buildings. There's no doubt that, um, uh, that that security has been tightened up, and technology has allowed that to happen. 

Eugene Oscapella: (22:30)
Part of it is because of, of fear. You know, we have massive levels of surveillance. I remember, uh, much of my career, I, I, I worked on privacy issues and, uh, and, and, uh, you know, we were worried at one time about red light cameras, about, uh, you know, the privacy implications of that. And that's, that's small change now. I mean, now we are captured, if you're walking outside in the street in a downtown core summer, there are probably hundreds of cameras recording your activities. And they're facial recognition technologies. Um, these things are a real threat to individual liberties. Um, and that's in many countries, in, in the UK and Europe, um, in China, of course, and authoritarian countries, um, in the United States, the, there, there's massive levels of, of surveillance as well. And, and, and it's, it's something that technology has allowed, and it's sort of like you, you know, if you build it, they will come. They have the technologies of surveillance, and they're being used even if, even where it's not, even, where it's not, uh, really justified. 

Reverend Becker: (23:31)
Well, um, you know, one of the reasons I've, uh, developed, or this particular focus, I watch a lot of those, uh, first Amendment auditors where they just carry a camera and go look at things and, and, uh, the, the in-house security and or just the administrators, oh, you can't do that here, even though the first amendment of the Constitution, it's our right. And, and then the cops will show up, and the cops know you can't do it here. And sometimes they arrest people, cuff them, uh, hold them in the car for, you know, an hour or two. And, and it's, it's all part of that, this, this, uh, I, I don't know, just this creation of, of suspicion that that suspicion is just, uh, flowing like a river. It's everywhere. Everybody's suspect. And at the heart of it was the drug war because the, the drug war was that new set of facts, the alternative facts. We had reality, and then we had this, oh, what might happen with drugs? Oh, we have, we can't allow what might happen to happen, so we've gotta arrest everybody in the meantime. And that's, that's really the heart of the drug war. Am I right? 

Eugene Oscapella: (24:38)
Well, we had, I mean, we, in, in, in, as you and I both know, I mean, fake news was here a long time ago. And that long time before the, the current president came in, it was, it was part of the war on drugs, misinformation. And, and, uh, you know, the only way to win the war on drugs, the mantra went, was to go ahead and build more prisons and throw more people in jail. And we know that doesn't work, and many politicians knew it didn't work, but they were saving their own skin by saying that it did. They were saving their own jobs. There was a private prison industry that was making billions and billions of dollars by putting, putting, uh, Americans in cages and, and, and, uh, and in other countries as well. You know, the criminal law was used as a principle instrument. 

Eugene Oscapella: (25:21)
Um, you know, we know we've, we've seen the, the, the, the, the diminution of rights before the War on Terror before September 11th, 2001, before the War on Terror really came onto the, the screen. The, a lot of the loss of our rights happened as part of the war on drugs. Yeah. You know, the, I think body cavity searches some of the extraordinary powers of the surveillance, um, that were allowed as part of the, this inevitably failing attempt to use the criminal law to, to, to deal with drugs in our society, rather than treating it as a social and a health issue. Um, and then the War on Terror came along and they just took the template from the War on drugs. Exactly. Um, and, and, um, you know, so we basically, we already had the tools in place, and they were just transposed, I believe there was a speech by, by, uh, president George, uh, Bush Jr. 

Eugene Oscapella: (26:15)
Uh, president Bush Jr. Um, where he talked about, you know, using the tools that were already ahead for the war on drugs, to fight the war on terror. And that's exactly, I think it was one of his State of the Union addresses, where, where, where he basically said that, look, we've got these tools. We use 'em in the war on drugs. We'll just transpose these tools to the war on terror. And, and that's sometimes how, uh, and, and maybe we're going to see the transposition, you know, the use of those tools in a new form. I, I hope not. But as if, if governments evolve into an autocratic form, then they're going to use some of those same tools. 

Reverend Becker: (26:49)
Um, you know, I, this makes me think of, um, freedoms that, that have been lost. I, I was, I was thinking earlier, um, I going to, um, flying from, say, Houston to Ottawa, um, I, I could get in a taxi, taxi could take me right up to the gate. This is before nine 11, y'all. This is back when freedom was real. You could, you could ride up to the, the main gate, get your suitcase, run through the front door. There's no cop, there's nobody you can run all the way to your gate where they're filling that plane up. You could pay cash right there on the table and get on the plane. And woo, they, you made it just in time. And, and nobody ever looked at your suitcase. No one ever worried about you. Uh, it's, it's this embrace of terrorism. So some yay, who had some silly half-ass bomb in his shoe. 

Reverend Becker: (27:47)
In the meantime, billions of shoes have been taken off and run through a, a, a scanner. And it's, it's just such a mm, uh, such a, uh, embrace of ignorance, all of this stuff that, that we cannot be trusted to wear shoes in in an airport. It's, it's just part of this whole thing that we need to be controlled. We're no longer trustworthy, that we're, we're not good citizens. We're we better see your id. We, we better look into you before we allow you to proceed. And it's, it's just getting to be really aggravating to me. I mean, I hitchhiked all across this country. I did all kinds of crazy semi-legal things that never hurt one person and, and, uh, had a hell of a time. And I'm just so sad for the future generations that are going to be constrained like zombies, like, you know, in a cage, somehow, um, your response to that thought, Eugene, oh, 

Eugene Oscapella: (28:44)
It, it, it's worrisome. I mean, but if, if you look at, um, the way governments operate, and this is, you know, in general, I mean, if you create fear, if you create a fearful society, they're much easier to control. And so you, you know, you, you, you create these, these, um, you know, massive boogeymen that, uh, you know, you, you set up something that this is the greatest threat to our existence. And, and if once you, once you've convinced the society of that, then of course you can go ahead and, and get them to accept all sorts of extraordinary measures. And eventually, those extraordinary measures, those extraordinary measures of control, eventually those measures of control become normalized so that the, you know, the, the, the, the cameras that are used in a very limited circumstance, and the DNA evidence that's collected from people, um, uh, from some criminals after, you know, who were accused of violent offenses, well, that becomes normalized after a while. 

Eugene Oscapella: (29:39)
The, the Britain was a great example of that. The United Kingdom, where, where they were taking, uh, uh, DNA samples are useful if you've got a violent crime, and you've got DNA left at the, at the scene of the crime. Um, and so you take that DNA sample, and if you've got somebody who's accused of the crime, uh, or convicted of the, uh, of a similar crime, of a violent crime, they may have their DNA on a database. So you can, you can check the, the, the, the crime scene sample with the database. But in, in Britain, they were, they were taking it from people with basically taking it for people, for traffic offenses, for pedestrian, you know, jaywalking offenses, and, and basically building up this massive DNA database of otherwise law abiding citizens rather than, than serious violent criminals. And, and, uh, then you, once you've got that, and once you've got the technology, the facial recognition technologies, which are in, uh, increasingly in use, now you, you've got a mechanism for controlling people. 

Eugene Oscapella: (30:36)
I, I remember being at a, at a privacy conference in, in England, in London about 20 years ago. And, and the, the, the, the, what they call the data protection commissioner there, the, the private, the, the government official in charge of monitoring privacy issues. He said, look, and this is 20 years ago, uh, Dean, he was saying this, look, if you walked 20 minutes to get to this conference, you were probably captured about 300 times on, on closed circuit television. Look, closed circuit cameras. We, he said, we have all the tools for an authoritarian society ready right now. All we have to do is flip the switch. And the big fear that many people have right now is that somebody's gonna flip the switch. I mean, we, we see it in, in autocratic countries already. There's, you know, and, and, you know, I'm sure people are worried about the threats to their rights in, in otherwise democratic countries. Now, 

Reverend Becker: (31:30)
Um, gonna kind of switch gears here a little bit. Over the decades, all of this has been unfurling. Um, there there's been this constant, I, I don't know, like Trump and his side, they wanna talk about the immigrants. There's millions of 'em insane. That side of prisons. They're giving them to us, bringing 'em from their jails, all of that silliness. He, he spout and the truth be told, we the United States and every nation, and which is nearly every nation on earth that supports the drug war, is supporting those immigrants coming north, is supporting the cartel south to the border, is supporting the violent gangs that prow our neighborhood, is supporting the death toll that keeps rising and rising because they don't want to face this reality. You and I first began talking about it. Yeah. That, that, um, the cartels thrive because of the drug war. Without the drug war, they would wither they would be go, go back to gambling and stealing of oil and gas. Uh, your response there, please. Well, 

Eugene Oscapella: (32:36)
I, I mean, we've, I mean, we've agreed on this point for, for, for decades. And, and that's one of the things that got me into the drug policy reform, that we, we basically export violence to producer in transit countries by criminalizing drugs, because we, we take a drug that costs very little to produce, could be heroin, could be cocaine. They, they cost very little to produce. They're not, they're not fantastically expensive because they're expensive to produce. They're fantastically expensive because of drug prohibition. And what we've done is we've created the incentive for violent criminal groups to get involved in producing and, and transiting and selling drugs. Uh, and that's what has caused much of the carnage in South America, in, in, in middle, uh, middle America, middle Latin America. And that is reaching into the United States, Canada, the countries of Western Europe. I I was just speaking to, uh, uh, some police officials from a northern, uh, uh, a northern European countries, a few data country a few days ago. 

Eugene Oscapella: (33:37)
And they're talking about the violence in an otherwise quite peaceful society because of the drug gangs. Drug gangs are violent because of drug prohibition. You take a product that costs nothing to produce you, ti you prohibit it, and you may get fantastically profitable to sell. So we have created by, by supporting drug prohibition, we have created violent societies. We've en empowered criminal gangs around the world, and that that is driving people to flee their countries out of, out, out of fear because of the violence in those countries. I mean, you and I both know the statistics on, on the carnage in, in Mexico, the number of people murdered by drug gangs. Um, the number of people disappeared, the number of people kidnapped the, the number of people, uh, missing in those countries. Um, people don't want to raise their families in that environment. But, but you know, we, the, the, the countries of the Western world that supported drug prohibition have made the conditions of life sometimes intolerable in these countries. 

Eugene Oscapella: (34:37)
And the citizens of these countries flee these countries, and they look for a safer place to go. That's one of the sources of immigration to, uh, to our countries. And, and basically we have created the problem. And, and you look as, as, and you know, you know, as well as I do that many of the weapons used by the, the drug cartels in, in Mexico are, are come from American arms manufacturers, weapons manufacturers. Um, so we, we have, and that's one of the reasons they, I mean, the Mexican president, uh, uh, said that maybe we should call the American arms manufacturers, you know, weapons manufacturers, gun manufacturers, maybe we should call them terrorist organizations. That was one of her, that was one of her statements. Um, because they, they have empowered the cartels and made life intolerable for so many ordinary citizens in these, in these countries where drugs are produced and shipped. 

Reverend Becker: (35:33)
And it's just like we're pouring money right down the drain because the, all the efforts of law enforcement for these past 100 years have not stopped the flow of drugs. In fact, it's increased every year. There are more and more people involved, more and more people dying. And it's all because they, they have their pipe dream, I guess, that somehow that it's just gonna work out in the long run. 'cause it's God's will or something. I, I don't think it's anybody's will. I, I, I wanna point this out to you, Eugene, up I I, I brought this up last week, and I think it's important to point it out, especially to my listeners in Houston or in Texas, that up until recently, uh, last year, I was able to interview every mayor, every district attorney, every police chief, every sheriff of this city, county, uh, to come on the show at least once a year or so. 

Reverend Becker: (36:27)
And we had a bust, I don't know, I guess it's coming up on four or five years ago, called the Harding Street Bust, which was just narcotic squad gone wild, uh, proving that, you know, that it's just outta control. The judges ain't paying any attention. The DA don't care on down the line. And that's what I wanted to talk about. And that all of them avoid me now. And I guess I, I went last year to, uh, the courthouse. The DA was holding a conference. She's gone now, the good da, uh, but she was holding a conference. I went down there, I'm wearing my t-shirt, moral high ground, uh, you know, I come through the line and nowadays you have to go through a metal detector. You have to go. They had three frigging security cops sitting there for me to walk through. They took my wallet, they took my shoes off. 

Reverend Becker: (37:12)
They wanted to take my socks off. They wanted, they had, they held me down. I'm screaming, you mother on down the line. I'm, uh, you can't, this is illegal. Um, and, and I guess what I'm wanting to say is that, you know, they're afraid someone's gonna sneak a razorblade in. That's what I heard was their main concern, that someone might sneak a razorblade in and go to town. And, um, if they're that paranoid, you know, if, if they don't have the defense in place, if they don't, I, I don't know how to say this other than it's just another overreach, another means of controlling even people like me. Uh, uh, I can't say what I said there. It's bringing back the memory, but it's like being held captive in your, in your own courthouse, because certain people are afraid of you. And so they instruct these security guards to demean you. And, and just, you know, went through my wallet, just every, every section of my wallet. This 

Eugene Oscapella: (38:16)
You don't remember. Uh, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, Dean, but please finish. 

Reverend Becker: (38:21)
Well, no, that, that's good enough. Your response. Please, sir. 

Eugene Oscapella: (38:25)
Well, I'm, I, I, you know, I look at the, the history of the prosecution of the war on drugs as an example of this, where we allowed people to get away with all sorts of, you know, we, we allowed all sorts of police abuses, uh, in our countries in the name of winning the war on drugs. 'cause we'd created this fear of drugs, and that we created this notion that any sort of response was justified, even if it violated the law, or we were going to look the other way. Uh, because the, the we, the, the perceived problem was so great. We'd created this, this, this monstrous con, this concept of this monstrous, monstrous problem. And we thought that the, that the only way we can do with it is by extraordinary measures. And so we tolerated all sorts of, of, uh, of abuses of, of basically individual rights in the name of winning the war on drugs. 

Eugene Oscapella: (39:18)
Um, and, you know, that's, that's what's most frightening. That if you create fear in a, in a, in a, a public, um, then they will tolerate all sorts of things. They will tolerate all sorts of excessive measures in the name of, of, you know, of, of, uh, tackling this, this, this, uh, uh, you know, supposed problem. And I'm not, I'm not denying that there is a problem, you know, a hundred thousand Americans a year and, uh, some or less this year. But we're, we're dying from, uh, opiate overdoses. Pri you know, primarily fentanyl is, you know, uh, the, the numbers are proportionally less in Canada. But we still have a, a significant problem here. We know there are significant drug problems, but the, the, the issue is not, uh, is, is how do we deal with 'em effectively? You know, if you, I, you know, we're watching the, the, of course, these attempts to make the US government more efficient with Doge. 

Eugene Oscapella: (40:09)
Um, but if, if we were to look at the war on drugs, if we were looking at government efficiency, we would look at something that over the past a hundred years, in, in most countries around the world, even the, the countries that have the most advanced technologies, the most advanced securities technologies, they stopped maybe 10, 15% of the drugs coming in across their borders. You know, it's a, a failure rate of 80, 90%. Um, and, and of course, you'll remember, you know, many years ago for, uh, cannabis started to become legalized at the state level in, in, in many American states that about half of, of the US cannabis supply was supplied domestically in, in the United States. So we couldn't stop stuff coming into the country. Half of it was being produced within the United States. And, you know, this is, it basically the criminal law has been totally incapable of reducing the supply of drugs. And it has actually created the incentive to produce more drugs. So if we were to look at government, if we were to have an honest look at government efficiency, that would be one area where there might be some, some real effort that could be made to, you know, to say, you know, has our money been well spent in that? Is there a better way to deal with the, the drugs that are in our society? That's, you know, there's, there's a legitimate use of, of a quest for government deficiency. 

Reverend Becker: (41:25)
Well, Eugene, I bring this up nearly every week, but I was privileged now five years ago, uh, went to Portugal, met where the drugs are, went to Switzerland, met with the designer of the Swiss heroin injection program, got to tour one of their facilities where the, the, uh, citizens come, uh, twice, um, sometimes three times a day. Mm-hmm . They get their injection or their snort or however they take it. And, uh, um, lead normal lives. They work, they go to school, they raise children. They're not out stealing, they're not out looking for their next fix. They're leading normal lives. Yeah. And, and they've done that, uh, well over 20 million times with zero zero overdose deaths in nearly 30 years of implementation. And that prove proves to me just how off base we are. Uh, I, I, I, you know, maybe the audience gets tired of hearing me talking about it, but it proves the point that we have done it wrong, that there is a better way and, and that we should at least consider it. 

Reverend Becker: (42:26)
But as of now, uh, this October will make 24 years that I've been on the air inviting the drug czar and, uh, head of the DEA, which, by the way, gets $3.2 billion a year for being a miserable failure. And, and, uh, you know, now the sheriffs and, you know, the locals and, and others, uh, as their names pop up in the news, none of them have ever even responded. Well, no. The DEA did respond twice, and then, uh, they just don't answer my calls. The point being, it is a fraud, a sham scam, phlegm flam, there's nothing legitimate to this. It is a means for a lot of people to make money every year prison builders on up. Um, you know, cocaine costs maybe a thousand dollars a pound in Columbia if you buy a hundred of them. And you can get a hundred thousand dollars and more per pound once you get it to the United States. And, and that incentive is, is never going to quell this trade, is never going to discourage this marketplace. And, and the, those in power positions of power, they profit from this. They don't ever want my words to expose their sham. Uh, your response to that thought, please. 

Eugene Oscapella: (43:46)
Well, in, as, as, as you know, Dean, I teach, uh, a drug policy at the University of Ottawa here in Ottawa. And I spend an entire three hour lecture in my course talking about who profits from prohibition, because it doesn't, it doesn't make sense. And the prohibition is just the use of the criminal laws, the principle instrument for dealing with, with, with, with drugs, with certain drugs. Many drugs are legal, but those, those hundreds that are illegal. And, uh, it takes me three hours, and I could go on talking longer, but you know, the, the organizations that profit from the current system, the United States has, uh, you know, a significant portion of its criminal, uh, of its prison population being run by, by private prisons and privately run prisons. And you'll remember after the, the, the economic crisis, 2008, 2009, that, uh, one of the major prison corporations in the United States, sorry, one of the major prison corporations in the United States, um, offered to buy up the, offered to, uh, run the prisons, to run the prisons of the, um, uh, of the United States, uh, of 48 states. 

Eugene Oscapella: (44:57)
As a matter of fact, if the government guaranteed 40% occupancy or not, 40, 90% occupancy of those prisons, basically. So these, these corporations are making money keeping human beings in cages. And unfortunately, too often it's, it's poor white guys guarding poor black and Hispanic guys. And that's the, you know, the black and Hispanic guys are in the prisons. The, the, the white guys are the, are the ones sitting out there as, as the prison guards. You know, it's, it's a, it's a false industry. It's a false industry. And so they make profits from it. Politicians make profit. They profit by getting reelected on promises of solving the war on drugs. They're not, they know it doesn't work, but they're afraid to say it because they might not get reelected. The media makes money out of the war on drugs, the organized crime, obviously terrorist groups, they, they, they get massive amounts of funding through drug prohibition, through the profits from the sale of drugs. 

Eugene Oscapella: (45:53)
So all these organizations make money from the current system. They don't want the system to change. So, you know, even reasonable arguments for, for change run up against the, this, this wall of opposition from people who profit from the current system, even if that current system causes enormous harm to society as a whole. And that is one of the tasks, the, the challenges that we have is people interested in reform, is how do help the public understand that the system that politicians and governments and, and corporations say is a good system, is actually a flawed system that only really serves their interest, that doesn't serve the interest of the public. 

Reverend Becker: (46:37)
I, um, you know, it's just, it's, it's really kind of creepy, uh, kind of, um, just, um, I, I don't know. It, I, I, I, I remember the, the theories or the thoughts I had about communism and all that stuff, how crazy it must be, and how manipulative and, oh, I don't know, just, uh, creepy. And I, I think that's us now, uh, the world, really, the world embracing this idea that we're going to win the war on drugs, even if it takes another a hundred years or a thousand, we don't care. You know, we're that committed to this, that we're gonna save those children. Though the drug war does nothing to save children. 

Eugene Oscapella: (47:22)
No, it doesn't. What the, what the drug war does is, is it, is it deflects the, the, the, the, the real problems. It deflects attention from the real problems. People use drugs for a reason. People, it might be physical pain. If you've got, if you've got a sore knee or sore, if you had knee surgery, you're gonna be using morphine to deal with the pain. Uh, maybe fentanyl. If you've got a, you know, a long, long-term intractable back problem, you're going to be using it for physical pain. It could be psychological pain, it could be mental illness that leads you to use drugs. And, and just pretending that we can, we can stop drug use by, uh, by getting rid of this certain type of drug or whatever is, is, is, uh, is nonsensical. People use drugs for a reason. You have to get at why they want to use drugs. 

Eugene Oscapella: (48:11)
What is it? Do they feel inadequate? You know, cocaine, caffeine, these are stimulants. They, you know, they can help people, they can help elevate people's moods. In some cases, they can help, uh, uh, retain their, their, their sort of alertness. There are circumstances where, where drugs accomplish certain things. And if you want people to stop using drugs, you've gotta find out why they're using in the first place. You don't stop them from using drugs just by saying, no, we're going to ban use of this drug. If they can't get access to cocaine, they will use, they will find something else that will give them the same, the same effect. So we need to start paying more attention to why people use drugs rather than just pretending that, well, if we can, if we can just stop the flow of drugs into the country, which we can't, uh, that, that, that, that's going to solve the problem. It's not, we we're looking, we're we're looking at the, at the, the wrong type of solution. 

Reverend Becker: (49:05)
Oh, aren't we though? Um, and even now, I think as we're speaking, there's a, a conference going on or within this timeframe where the US Congress is deciding whether they're going to go full tilt against the cartels in Mexico, or if they're going to ease up a little bit and try a lesser approach of some kind. But, but the whole point being, those cartels have reaped trillions of dollars, trillions with a t over the decades of this drug war. They have the money, the men and the means to retaliate. And we, we think nine 11 was a surprise. Those, I'm not gonna say anything beyond that for fear of whatever, because the whole point is they will not sit idly, they will not take, um, the admonishment of Donald Trump to stop bringing drugs. They will find a way, and they will find a way to make him pay, uh, 

Eugene Oscapella: (50:09)
As long, as long, as long as there's money to be made. And they will, they will try and, and what's happening, it's hurting the United States, and it's hurting Canada and, and in many countries around the world, because the, the, the, the cartels, the the violent criminal groups that are producing and transiting drugs into Western countries, they want to get involved in the retail trade too. So they're setting up shop in the United States, many big American cities. So the, the, the violence that we thought was just, was something that happened in the producer, in the transit countries, drugs, the countries through which drugs transited are now affecting our countries. You know, these groups are, you know, I remember seeing, I don't know if it was a State Department report from, from the us, but saying that one of the greatest threats to the security of the United States was the, the cartels that were moving into the retail end of the trade in the United States. 

Eugene Oscapella: (50:59)
So we've, we've created these fantastically powerful cartels. They're now moving into, um, you know, countries like the United States to a, to, to a an extent in Canada, Western Europe as well. Um, we've created this problem. This is one of the, the, you know, it's coming back to bite us, basically, and we can't get rid of it. So the, if, if we're worried about violent drug crime in our cities, let's look at why we have that crime. And it's, it, it was our decision in the first place to, to criminalize these drugs rather than, than trying to help people who have drug problems. 

Reverend Becker: (51:35)
No, exactly. Right. Uh, we, we, we chose this fight, and, and it, to me, again, it just seems like it's a, a ploy, a a collusion to, to keep it going because the treatment providers make money. The, the urine testers make money. The prison builders, the, the security, the, the, the, the list is really endless. The money launderers, the banks, the, I mean, there's just so many people that profit from this and don't want it to end because it, well, 

Eugene Oscapella: (52:06)
Because they get too much money out of it. 

Reverend Becker: (52:08)
Yeah. It's, it's literally, um, hundreds of billions at least, uh, per year. And, and, but if you, 

Eugene Oscapella: (52:16)
You remember, just remember the, the, the, uh, the drug testing industry, the drug employee drug testing is much more widespread in the United States than it is in Canada. We, we, we, um, we have some constitutional rights that have basically kept that away in, in, in Canada, and except in very, very specific circumstances. But you'll remember there was a, a presidential commission on organized crime, I think it was under President Reagan, uh, many years ago, 40, 45 years ago. And one of the conclusions that they reached was that organized crime was making a lot of money selling drugs. No surprise to us. But, so they thought, what are we gonna do about this? Well, we're going to introduce drug testing so that federal government employees in the United States will not be using drugs because by using drugs, they're supporting organized crime. Well, so the original justification for, for drug testing was to prevent money, allegedly to prevent money flowing into the hands of organized crime. 

Eugene Oscapella: (53:12)
But then you got this massive multi-billion dollar drug testing industry that, that sprang up to make profit out of this. And they began, you know, the, the mantra was that, well, you know, if your employees are using drugs, they're less efficient. Um, they're gonna cause accidents. They, uh, you know, so we need to, we need to drug test our employees. And, and so there's a multi-billion dollar industry that's sprang up to drug test employees. And it's, and it's much easier to justify drug testing an employee if they're using an illegal drug, because that they've already, it's already got that moral patina, uh, uh, that so we can, you know, you're using cocaine, so that's a terrible drug. And, and, and, uh, and so we're going to test for that. And, and so we're doing our bit, uh, to, to protect the workplace. Um, I, I did a lot of work on, on employee drug testing in the, in the 1990s, uh, looking at the justifications for it. And they just weren't there. There are very limited circumstances where drug testing is actually warranted as a, as a means to protect productivity or enhance public safety. 

Reverend Becker: (54:16)
Um, I, I've announced over the airwaves, not every day or every week or whatever, but I, I smoke weed. I smoke maybe a gram a day. Y'all think about that. Oh lord, the world might end. And, and I worked for a company here called Transco. It was kind of a startup doing real good, making a lot of news. Uh, I was the star of the IT department. Everywhere I went, people called my boss and said, this guy, he's got me running smooth for many of 'em. All they had to do was hit one button a month. when I was done with him. But, but, uh, they said, we want you to go from contract to, uh, permanent, but you gotta go do a urine test today. And I, I messed around and tried to avoid it, and I guess it was too clean. I don't know what it was. 'cause I, I had drank so much liquids. Yeah. But it was about a month later, I was already getting regular paychecks, Mr. Becker, come with me. You failed your drug test. Yeah. Later that week, another guy called me, you wanna come run a, a gas accounting desk? I said, check with your hr. He checked it was okay. The, the, the, the, the permanent was government certified somehow, so I had to be urine tested. Yeah. But the contract didn't matter. And they didn't care. They rehired me again. Yeah. 

Eugene Oscapella: (55:30)
It was a bureaucratic rule. It was a bureaucratic rule that, that, that basically, you know, affected your career. 

Reverend Becker: (55:37)
But, but even after being caught, they hired me back again. Anyhow, we're about to run out of time. I want you to please summarize to the folks, uh, the work you do. Uh, maybe a website or two, and some closing thoughts, please. 

Eugene Oscapella: (55:49)
Okay. Well, closing thoughts. I, uh, first of all, thank you for inviting me on to, to speak with you, uh, Dina. As I said, I'm not an expert in political science. I'm, I'm offering you some of the views that I have from a, a friendly country north of the border. You know, one of the, the longest serving allies of the United States. Um, and also somebody who's worked in the drug policy field for many years alongside you and many other people. It was, it was, you know, I've, I think I've told you this before, Dean. It was, it was a, a conference held at the, uh, in, in Washington in, uh, in 1990 that I attended that really got me involved in drug policy reform. And, and there were an extraordinary number of very, very fine American scholars and, and activists who saw that the, this war on drugs was flawed. 

Eugene Oscapella: (56:33)
And, and that really got me into the, this movement. So I've, I've had the opportunity to work with, with the people in the United States, people around the world on this over, over the, the intervening decades. And it's still a fight. We have to keep going, but, and we can also see the, you know, how the tentacles of the approach that we've used in, in the war on drugs is reaching over into other areas of the operation of our society. And that's really frightening. That's, that's really frightening. And it, and it's, you know, I, I teach my students that to be, they have to be critical about the information they receive. And it's no more is, that is no more important than, than, than now. We have to be so critical of the information we receive. We have to actually challenge, um, facts if they seem too good to be true sometimes. That's so much of it. So much of what we have to do. We have to be critical in our thinking. 

Reverend Becker: (57:23)
Alright, friends, there you have it from Mr. Eugene Acapella, uh, a fine old friend of the show. And I, I sure. Thank you, sir. 

Eugene Oscapella: (57:30)
Well, thank you, Dean. It's a delight to speak with you. And, and thank you again for calling me and all the best. That's 

Reverend Becker: (57:35)
It. Uh, I want to thank you, Eugene, acapella. I want to thank you for tuning in. I wanna remind you once again, that because of prohibition, you don't know what's in that bag. And so I urge you to please be careful and remember, euphoria is a blessing, not a crime.